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Alfa Romeo 145 - 146 Forum > Technical > Conversions
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AnthonyT16
Hello guys!!!

saturday i had a problem with my car... looks like the head gasket has failed and water entered on a cylinder..... tomorrow evening i'll know what went wrong from the mechanic.


Now i'm considering taking a coupe 2.0 16v T engine (NOT THE 20V)

there are many many things i want to know :

- alfa 145 QV gear box doesn't fit right?
- should i take complete engine + gear box?
- i've read a lot that the engine can easy fit on alfa 145 QV
- what about the front wheels? do i need all the stuff of the coupe?
- the shocks kit i've got on my qv (front) are they goin to fit with the coupè stuff?
- strut brace? need a new one?
- brake disks ??

i'll use this thread to ask, and if i feel ok, this is goin to be te worklog thread.

thanks for further reading and advices.
langers
Back end of the car is the same so no change there except the fuel pump.

Engine and gearbox will straight up, you will need the front turbo struts and drive shafts etc. You wont be able to use the QV struts I believe as the flanges that connect to the hubs are wider.

Basically, the easier thing for you to do is: Remove all front engine, gearbox and sub frame complete with suspension from the Coupe, and the same from the QV, and do a complete swap.

AnthonyT16
QUOTE(langers @ 8th September 2013 13:42) *
Back end of the car is the same so no change there except the fuel pump.

Engine and gearbox will straight up, you will need the front turbo struts and drive shafts etc. You wont be able to use the QV struts I believe as the flanges that connect to the hubs are wider.

Basically, the easier thing for you to do is: Remove all front engine, gearbox and sub frame complete with suspension from the Coupe, and the same from the QV, and do a complete swap.


ok i've got that for now.... thanks!
langers
I have more time now, from my understanding if I were to complete a conversion I would do the below:

Remove the below from the 145 QV:
Front suspension
Front Brakes
Front Subframe
Engine + Gearbox
All Radiator and pipes etc.

Take time to clean engine bay and label wires.

Remove the same as above from the Coupe, and place in to the 145. The main items such as engine mounts and subframe etc will bolt up the same.

Sort out wiring, I cannot hep here.

Rig up all pipes such as radiator etc.

I have more time now, from my understanding if I were to complete a conversion I would do the below:

Remove the below from the 145 QV:
Front suspension
Front Brakes
Front Subframe
Engine + Gearbox
All Radiator and pipes etc.

Take time to clean engine bay and label wires.

Remove the same as above from the Coupe, and place in to the 145. The main items such as engine mounts and subframe etc will bolt up the same.

Sort out wiring, I cannot hep here.

Rig up all pipes such as radiator etc.
AnthonyT16
thanks for the reply.... actually what is pulling me back is the wiring, and i really need someone who can help me out with that.
AnthonyT16
went to the mechanic and told him about this, he said that the electronics is the minor problem for him ......

i'm definetly goin to find a 2.0 16v from now!

let the fun begin! jerry.gif
Harpo
So, the 20V set up doesn't bolt straight in?
Okay, I will look around the site to find the answer!
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(Harpo @ 9th September 2013 23:01) *
So, the 20V set up doesn't bolt straight in?
Okay, I will look around the site to find the answer!

Yes it does, with the same caveats such as having to swap over all the bits langers previously mentioned. The main difference is that the 20vt is a wider engine so the cam belt covers sit right up against the inner arch which means engine removal is required to do a cambelt change, unlike the 16vt.
AnthonyT16
QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 10th September 2013 05:22) *
Yes it does, with the same caveats such as having to swap over all the bits langers previously mentioned. The main difference is that the 20vt is a wider engine so the cam belt covers sit right up against the inner arch which means engine removal is required to do a cambelt change, unlike the 16vt.


that's one of the reasons for me by going to the 16v instead of the 20v
Alfa-Si
For example you can see in this pic the minimal clearance between the cam cover and chassis leg. On the 20vt



It is also very tight for space around the whole of the engine bay.
langers
20VT FOR THE WIN!
AnthonyT16
guys is this the correct silicon tubes for the intercooler connection???

Alfa-Si
QUOTE(AQV @ 11th September 2013 10:02) *
guys is this the correct silicon tubes for the intercooler connection???

There isn't really a 'correct' way of doing the intercooler pipes. What you need to do is get the engine in and the intercooler mounted and then measure up what you need.
When I did mine, the ph1 was completely different to how I did the ph2 because of the towing eye on the ph1 being solid and the ph2 screwing out. And I also did the ph2 3 different ways before I was happy, it's all trial and error tbh.
AnthonyT16
ok good to know that...
AnthonyT16
what about getting in the HF Delta engine instead of the usual & common 16 / 20t?





do i still need it's driveshafts & subframe from the delta?

cause i've found a delta engine

http://i.imgur.com/uswGCkF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dnKhNJt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ummoq1E.jpg

including gearbox electronics cables & the turbo, and i was asking my self what else do i need for it.

if anyone got tips, please write. thanks.

IgoRR
You will need gear linkages, both axle drives, engine & gearbox mounts, from what I see smile.gif

It is a better option than a Coupe 16VT engine, because Lancias connectors just plug on to the Alfas, where from the fiat engine you have to adjust and solder and what not to fit it wink.gif

SERIOUSLY, GO FOR IT!!! I WOULD.
AnthonyT16
QUOTE(IgoRR @ 22nd September 2013 08:38) *
You will need gear linkages, both axle drives, engine & gearbox mounts, from what I see smile.gif

It is a better option than a Coupe 16VT engine, because Lancias connectors just plug on to the Alfas, where from the fiat engine you have to adjust and solder and what not to fit it wink.gif

SERIOUSLY, GO FOR IT!!! I WOULD.


hey thanks for your reply!!!

you lookk much more excited than me whistle.gif

.. i'm personally goin to do the swap with other two friends, and one of them is a good mechanic smile.gif (mi 2.0 16ts engine is definetely DEAD and gone, had the news just yesterday from the mechanic )

so please forgive my dumb/noob question but i want to look that way instead of buy this and that and get stucked when i'm working on it!)

i need to know, what do you mean with lancia connectors? i was sure many ppl says that coupè engine just plug into the alfa, didn't need any kind of soldering... you are the first one that says that need soldering!

gear box from that engine is there, i would need the subframe and the axle drives, wich are not with the engine, so i need to get those, actually dunno where to search..... blush.gif gotta ask the guy if it has those things!
Alfa-Si
There is definetly a lot of wiring to do during the conversion.
It can get quite messy if your not carefull.
AnthonyT16
ah ... so the wiring must be done during, and not when the engine is in?
Alfa-Si
Do the wiring with the engine in as the loom obviously goes on to the engine.
The problem is just in decifering the correct plugs and colour wires on the alfa loom then the location of the corresponding plug/wire on the fiat loom.
IgoRR
The wires(connectors) from the Lancia are 90 - 95% plug'n'play

axle drives are the same on all the 16vt

btw, the Lancia engine is a better quality engine than the Fiat one.

Better intake plenum, more precise engine parts, etc.

And yes, I am excited biggrin.gif

Would like to do the swap myself.
AnthonyT16
QUOTE(IgoRR @ 22nd September 2013 19:19) *
The wires(connectors) from the Lancia are 90 - 95% plug'n'play

axle drives are the same on all the 16vt

btw, the Lancia engine is a better quality engine than the Fiat one.

Better intake plenum, more precise engine parts, etc.

And yes, I am excited biggrin.gif

Would like to do the swap myself.



whistle.gif whistle.gif THANKS! rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif

but what about the gearbox?? still the sameone as fiat coupè t16??

as at now for 90% i've found a 100% fiat coupè donor, for 800€ 90000km , it only need a new water pump

i'm also excited for the delta engine but thats 1500€ .... for 100000km, vendor says, is better to make a new cambelt blush.gif


i need to calm down and choose!!! blush.gif rant.gif angry.gif
AnthonyT16
so i've choosed the delta one cool.gif

questions:

- is it possible to leave the hot air circuit? the heater. don't want the clima
- is also possible to leave the battery in his original place?
black 146
QUOTE(AQV @ 25th September 2013 20:45) *
so i've choosed the delta one cool.gif

questions:

- is it possible to leave the hot air circuit? the heater. don't want the clima
- is also possible to leave the battery in his original place?






have a look at this
http://forum.berlinasportivo.com/showthread.php?t=2483
AnthonyT16
allready went there, not much usefull other than this pic



wich explains quite nothing since its not all installed, so i can't figure out my doubts.

and the other pics i see, are about an EXTREME tuning, since aint aming on 900hp isn't much usefull to me
black 146
i gave up trying to log in ? on to the web site
Alfa-Si
QUOTE(AQV @ 25th September 2013 20:45) *
so i've choosed the delta one cool.gif

questions:

- is it possible to leave the hot air circuit? the heater. don't want the clima
- is also possible to leave the battery in his original place?


You can keep the 145 heater just connect the 2 pipes from the 145 bulkhead to the engine.
I think you'll probably be able to keep the battery where it is, I have it in the original place with my 20vt.
AnthonyT16
QUOTE(black 146 @ 25th September 2013 20:53) *
i gave up trying to log in ? on to the web site



uhm.. yes, if you aren't registered you can't view many pages since the cookies are stored in your browser history, just use another browser or reboot your router, you'll be fine!

QUOTE(Alfa-Si @ 25th September 2013 20:56) *
You can keep the 145 heater just connect the 2 pipes from the 145 bulkhead to the engine.
I think you'll probably be able to keep the battery where it is, I have it in the original place with my 20vt.


ok good, so in that case i can also remove the small radiator since is the one for the AC isn't it??

good also for the battery, your engine is wider so if you can do that i would also be able on a 4 cilinder engine!!

thanks man for your usefull posts worshippy.gif
Alfa-Si
Yeah the small rad in front of the large water rad is for the A/C so if you don't want A/C get rid and obviously the rest of the pipes and drier as well.
AnthonyT16
QUOTE(Alfa-Si @ 25th September 2013 22:09) *
Yeah the small rad in front of the large water rad is for the A/C so if you don't want A/C get rid and obviously the rest of the pipes and drier as well.



thanks!!! that's really great!!

---------

so... waiting for the engine to arrive, i think that:

- i'm going to use the qv front suspensions because i'm about to get a Koni V1 adjustable ammo set
- selling my front 284mmx22 tar-ox g88 disks and calipers and install the coupè 20 vt 4pistons calipers and 305 mm disks
- sell away the cda carbon filter bcoz for the lancia delta engine conversion i don't think it will fit nicely as i've done now for the TS engine.

whistle.gif

Ganz
Sorry to hear about your 145. I've heard people talk about the Intergralle. Depends what you want. What about the Italian insurance??
langers
Please do more research regarding this comment:
- i'm going to use the qv front suspensions because i'm about to get a Koni V1 adjustable ammo set

I THINK, the flanges that connect the hub to the strut will be wider on the turbo models, the QV is relatively thin.
AnthonyT16
QUOTE(Ganz @ 29th September 2013 01:30) *
Sorry to hear about your 145. I've heard people talk about the Intergralle. Depends what you want. What about the Italian insurance??


thanks, i also have some good/bad news for my qv engine.....

about the italian insurance is better don't talk about, they are not permissive for this kind of things, just if you install the strut bar and you get involved in an accident they can't deny the insurance cover so......

QUOTE(langers @ 29th September 2013 08:43) *
Please do more research regarding this comment:
- i'm going to use the qv front suspensions because i'm about to get a Koni V1 adjustable ammo set

I THINK, the flanges that connect the hub to the strut will be wider on the turbo models, the QV is relatively thin.


do you mean this

[attachment=15154:download.jpg]
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(AQV @ 29th September 2013 11:16) *
do you mean this

[attachment=15154:download.jpg]

No, he means where the hub bolts to the suspension strut...



The gap in the suspension strut mounts where they bolt to the hub is 25mm on a QV but on the Fiat Coupe struts the gap is 35mm. This means a Coupe hub will not fit a set of QV struts because the gap will be to small to fit the hub into which is why when fitting the hubs and drive shafts from a Fiat Coupe you also need to use the Coupe struts.

I assume the engine you're using is out of a Nuova Delta (the 2nd generation without 4WD)? If you're going to be using the drive shafts and hubs from one of those you need to check what size the Delta hub is so you know whether or not you can use QV struts.
AnthonyT16
ah ok thanks! .... so if i use the 145 suspension my only problem would be for the 305mm disks and calipers, right?
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(AQV @ 29th September 2013 11:57) *
ah ok thanks! .... so if i use the 145 suspension my only problem would be for the 305mm disks and calipers, right?

No, the issue has nothing to do with the brake disks and calipers. It's to do with the drive shafts and hubs.

You will need to use the drive shafts from a Coupe/Delta because the QV drive shafts won't fit the 16vt gearbox. This in turn means that you will need to use the Coupe/Delta hubs because the Coupe/Delta drive shafts will not fit the original QV hubs. So, by using Coupe/Delta hubs you will need struts that will accommodate the width of the hub mounts where they bolt to the strut.
AnthonyT16
QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 29th September 2013 11:12) *
No, the issue has nothing to do with the brake disks and calipers. It's to do with the drive shafts and hubs.

You will need to use the drive shafts from a Coupe/Delta because the QV drive shafts won't fit the 16vt gearbox. This in turn means that you will need to use the Coupe/Delta hubs because the Coupe/Delta drive shafts will not fit the original QV hubs. So, by using Coupe/Delta hubs you will need struts that will accommodate the width of the hub mounts where they bolt to the strut.


ah but that's ok, the engine is coming with its own driveshaft and gearbox, so now i need to know then if i can still use the front qv sospensions set , use the delta driveshafts, and coupè hubs, if not need to know what do i need!

i'm sorry to being so boring but i'm making some difficulties by understanding the tecnical words and parts in english, i hope you ppl will have patience to help me out blush.gif
Alfa-Si
QUOTE(AQV @ 29th September 2013 13:47) *
ah but that's ok, the engine is coming with its own driveshaft and gearbox, so now i need to know then if i can still use the front qv sospensions set , use the delta driveshafts, and coupè hubs, if not need to know what do i need!

i'm sorry to being so boring but i'm making some difficulties by understanding the tecnical words and parts in english, i hope you ppl will have patience to help me out blush.gif


No, to use the delta driveshafts and hubs, you have to use the delta suspension.

basically you need the engine, gearbox, driveshafts, hubs, brakes, suspension from the delta. the alfa parts will not fit the delta parts.

The only alfa parts left effectively will be the bodywork.
AnthonyT16
QUOTE(Alfa-Si @ 29th September 2013 13:00) *
No, to use the delta driveshafts and hubs, you have to use the delta suspension.

basically you need the engine, gearbox, driveshafts, hubs, brakes, suspension from the delta. the alfa parts will not fit the delta parts.

The only alfa parts left effectively will be the bodywork.


just found the hubs on ebay.... so one less, need to check if suspensions and brakes of qv will fit, wating a guys reply on facebook wich did this type of conversion, let's see what he will answer about!
Alfa-Si
QUOTE(AQV @ 29th September 2013 14:15) *
just found the hubs on ebay.... so one less, need to check if suspensions and brakes of qv will fit, wating a guys reply on facebook wich did this type of conversion, let's see what he will answer about!


The suspension will not fit. The lower mounting (part at the bottom of the strutt where 2 bolts go through the hub) are different sizes.
GialloEvo94
This is the reason why people doing this conversion generally buy a complete donor Coupe or at least the engine complete with subframe and suspension parts. Then you have everything you need from the start without having to worry.

Does the Nuova Delta actually use the same floor pan as the 145/146 & Coupe? I'm not sure offhand without checking. If not then you may have problems using the Delta suspension parts in a 145.
AnthonyT16
i can take subframe and sospension of a coupè then, if this can help, if not... i need to step back and get a coupè t16.

but i don't know/understand what is the gloor pan, so i can't answer that question!
simon88wilson
i think that was a spelling mistake and he meant to say "floor pan" unsure.gif
AnthonyT16
aaah ok now i really understand what's the "floor pan" so in this case, 145/coupè uses the same floor pan, the 145 may be different in some particular, but also not completely sure... i looked at some pics here in the conversions thread and the delta engine pics i have, are quite similar to the coupè t16, i had a great talk with Aj days ago wich he confirmed to me that coupè t16 and delta engine are quite similar, the delta one has longer air intake and is a more precise engine than the coupè t16, and has the same mounts, ... and also i saw on his thread that he mentioned to take t16 subframe and sospensions, he also needed the coupè t16 hubs,

i hope i can buy somewhere the coupè t16 adjustable front ammo/shocks sets ONLY .. don't wanna buy a full set.

edit: found this info on an italian tuning forum

is says : " a D2 kit [cut]

Being available Alfa x 145-146 x should also be Fiat Coupe, the floor pan is the same!

[cut] "

w00t2.gif jerry.gif

Edit2: i was looking around for the delta brake disks 2nd version, and what i've found is that it uses 284mm x 22 disks, the identical size as mine!!! lol... freaking happy tongue.gif
GialloEvo94
Apologies for my incorrect spelling earlier. I was typing on my phone and didn't see the mistake. Wasn't very helpful to someone whose native language isn't English. I've now corrected it anyway.

From what I've found, it looks like the Nuovo Delta is based on the same floor pan as the 145/146/Coupe (inherited from the Tip floor pan). I've just done some cross-referencing in the parts catalogue and this is what I've found out...
  • The Nuovo Delta and the Coupe 16vt both use the same drive shafts and the same hub assemblies so you can use those parts of either a Delta or a Coupe.
  • The shocks, springs and top mounts are different between the Nuovo Delta and the Coupe 16vt so you would need to decide which to use. For the shocks and springs they may be identical looking units but just different damping/rebound and spring rates. I don't know. For the top mount differences it may be because the Delta and Coupe need different camber/castor angles. As the Coupe struts and top mounts are the ones that have already been proven on other 145 conversions, those are the ones I would probably go for if it was me, unless of course you want to be a guinea pig for trying out the Delta suspension parts.
  • Because the hub assemblies on the Nuovo Delta and the Coupe 16vt are the same, it will mean you can use the brake setup from either car. I would probably go with whichever has the largest brakes.
AnthonyT16
QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 29th September 2013 20:48) *
Apologies for my incorrect spelling earlier. I was typing on my phone and didn't see the mistake. Wasn't very helpful to someone whose native language isn't English. I've now corrected it anyway.

From what I've found, it looks like the Nuovo Delta is based on the same floor pan as the 145/146/Coupe (inherited from the Tip floor pan). I've just done some cross-referencing in the parts catalogue and this is what I've found out...
  • The Nuovo Delta and the Coupe 16vt both use the same drive shafts and the same hub assemblies so you can use those parts of either a Delta or a Coupe.
  • The shocks, springs and top mounts are different between the Nuovo Delta and the Coupe 16vt so you would need to decide which to use. For the shocks and springs they may be identical looking units but just different damping/rebound and spring rates. I don't know. For the top mount differences it may be because the Delta and Coupe need different camber/castor angles. As the Coupe struts and top mounts are the ones that have already been proven on other 145 conversions, those are the ones I would probably go for if it was me, unless of course you want to be a guinea pig for trying out the Delta suspension parts.
  • Because the hub assemblies on the Nuovo Delta and the Coupe 16vt are the same, it will mean you can use the brake setup from either car. I would probably go with whichever has the largest brakes.


Thank you so much for your time! Really.. This post it will be very usefull for me and those out there that are looking for such similar and technical informations like this!

... most of my doubts are now clear.

I would have loved to put the 305mm disks on the front and push to the rear the 284mm disks but for this last one im afraid it isn't possible..
AnthonyT16
long time no writing here.... been busy with the swap stuff..

found on ebay.co.uk brembo 20t calipers .... but the guy, after i won the bidding it hasn't answered any of my question :|


btw .... i've bought the complete subframe with the antiroll bar, and hubs, and a complete T16 radiator.

tomorrow i'll call the shop to ask if and how much it will cost to take the engine with race manifolds and maybe an upgraded turbo charger, since this two parts are completely stock from the engine i paid for.

ah and also, i'm looking for a race exhaust system.

AnthonyT16
calipers arrived!

http://i.imgur.com/TXg4ZFs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/30GESbM.jpg

shipping from uk was so fast!! i'm just spechless!! only 17€ paid for the shipping.

... so working in progress here.
AnthonyT16
Guys?!

since i haven't got an entire fiat coupè as donor i've quite got the whole stuff to start, i still need to find the exhaust and fuel pump... for the fuel pump i've found a turbo 20v pump for a cheap price, is it good to go or i strictly need the 16v t fuel pump?

plz answer ohmy.gif
AnthonyT16


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