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Full Version: 2.0ltr Cams In My 1.6 Head
Alfa Romeo 145 - 146 Forum > Technical > Twin Spark Engine Only Oily Stuff
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stevepx
So the head was well and truely shot, gasket failure and severely pitted head. So on went the 2.0 (1.8) ltr head I've had sitting around...it deffo not running 100% but already I can feel a bit more urgency from the engine and sounds very different too. I guess I need a remap to get it running spot on so can anyone offer garages in Hampshire (southampton) who can do the work.....oh bottom end was fine, no damage which was a result...
Duncan
You using the 2.0ltr inlet manifold as well?? Exhaust ports any different and if so are you using 2.0ltr exhaust manifold as well??

As for remap, maybe try these guys: http://www.reddotracing.co.uk/rollingroad/default.asp

They've got Alfa/Fiat experience so might be worth a try??

My 145 Turbo is getting mapped by http://www.fcperformance.co.uk/ when it's done, not sure if they deal with the Bosch ECUs on Alfas but they've got a very good reputation in Fiat Coupe land.

Smallville
I have sent FCPerformance an email about remapping the GTA so I can keep you updated on that smile.gif
langers
The ECU's as you know on the Coupe are EPROM...as are the early 145's. So the mapping factor will be the same.
NaanBread
kirk is the man to speak to about putting a 2ltr head on 1.6 I think?
black 146
when i did mine i put a 2ltr maff in. it helped a lot
i think a remap will help as making it run a lot better on petrol and that's all blush.gif no3.gif
stevepx
Its seems to have settled down a bit having driven the thing for a few miles, still not right so remap i think is the way to go. Having chatted with the mechanic who fitted the head, said it's not from a 2 ltr, probably a 1.8.......it's essential the same head, same cam but doesn't have the trick inlet "best of both worlds" he said...I'm sure I was told it came from a 2 ltr...anyway used all teh stuff currently on my car including the exhaust manifolds...had the throttle body and inlet already attached which my mechanic used....found a couple ofplases in southampton, none specialise in alfa's to do the remap, 250 seems to be the going rate...but at least i got my car back!!
Cloverleaf76
Hate to say it but wouldn't it be cheaper / easier just to get the right head?! unsure.gif It's also much more likely to work properly.

Have your tried AHM ? Adie specialises in alfas but suspect it may cost more than the right head would. From memory he's based a little way up the M3.
kirk46
QUOTE(NaanBread @ 20th September 2012 20:12) *
kirk is the man to speak to about putting a 2ltr head on 1.6 I think?



nope.... i just have 2.0L cams biggrin.gif
NaanBread
I couldn't remember if you bought the lot or not ha
hairoil
QUOTE(NaanBread @ 22nd September 2012 13:55) *
I couldn't remember if you bought the lot or not ha


Is there any info on the camshaft swap i.e 1.6 engine with 2.0 camshafts? Sounds interesting.
kirk46
QUOTE(hairoil @ 22nd September 2012 15:23) *
Is there any info on the camshaft swap i.e 1.6 engine with 2.0 camshafts? Sounds interesting.



yes i have 2.0L cams in my 1.6L

it was done a while ago now.... pick up seemed better but you will need a remap to get the full benefit
stevepx
so discovered part of the poor running issue, the exhaust wasn't sealed properly at the front pipe, no wonder it was sounding bad...as it heated up it would gradually seal itself but when cold it was blowing..now sorted that little gem out things sem to be a bit better.. noticed it still sounds harder edged which i like and pickup over about 3500-4000 rpm has improved a lot, remap still needed to make the most of it... KIRK46 did you find yours was a little flat high in the rev range in 3rd/4th, suspect too much air and not enough fuel which again would be sorted by a remap..there are a few places round here that do chip replacement but need a rolling road to sort the set up...like it though...
black 146
QUOTE(stevepx @ 25th September 2012 14:30) *
so discovered part of the poor running issue, the exhaust wasn't sealed properly at the front pipe, no wonder it was sounding bad...as it heated up it would gradually seal itself but when cold it was blowing..now sorted that little gem out things sem to be a bit better.. noticed it still sounds harder edged which i like and pickup over about 3500-4000 rpm has improved a lot, remap still needed to make the most of it... KIRK46 did you find yours was a little flat high in the rev range in 3rd/4th, suspect too much air and not enough fuel which again would be sorted by a remap..there are a few places round here that do chip replacement but need a rolling road to sort the set up...like it though...




what injectors are you using + manifold ?
stevepx
QUOTE(black 146 @ 25th September 2012 15:16) *
what injectors are you using + manifold ?



Hey Black 146 hows things?

I think it's using the standard injectors that come with the 1.8 (discovered it was a 1.8) and inlet manifold too, using my existing exhaust manifold from the 1.6 system. With my 1.6 it would race for the redline in 3rd and for the best part in 4th but seems to get to about 5500 - 6000 rpm and starts choking, probably would get to 7000 rpm but feel it would take an eternity...also running K&N cone so I imagine too much air in the mixture ..
black 146
QUOTE(stevepx @ 25th September 2012 20:04) *
Hey Black 146 hows things?

I think it's using the standard injectors that come with the 1.8 (discovered it was a 1.8) and inlet manifold too, using my existing exhaust manifold from the 1.6 system. With my 1.6 it would race for the redline in 3rd and for the best part in 4th but seems to get to about 5500 - 6000 rpm and starts choking, probably would get to 7000 rpm but feel it would take an eternity...also running K&N cone so I imagine too much air in the mixture ..



still ruining her IN witch is really hard as she is so fast on pull away and a over heating problem as it comes with a new head gasket joby
when i put my 2ltr head on i did have a maff problem so i put a 2ltr one on and she did run a lot better but i don't if that's down to it being new or a 2ltr ?
langers
I would have thought that the MAF's are fitted with different resistors to cope with the amount of air flow passing over the wire.
stevepx
So worth changing the MAF then which may help with the running?
black 146
QUOTE(stevepx @ 26th September 2012 19:43) *
So worth changing the MAF then which may help with the running?




see if you can pick one on here cheap whistle.gif
then if it works treat her to a new one and bit more of your hard earned cash
witch i call my alfa fund w00t2.gif
stevepx
I'm no expert but isn't the MAF just there to monitor the air flow, tell the ECU what is happening and the ECU then modifies the fuel mixture.. Would it really make any difference as so far the MAF's i've looked at are for 1.6, 1.8 or 2.0.. There is nothing wrong with my MAF its relatively new. Just a thought really..
gbzone
Relatively new MAF, but is it a Bosch or one of the cheap aftermarket ones? btw - anyone wants a cheap aftermarket one I have one they can have for the postage, used it a week and the symptoms seem very close to what your describing unsure.gif
stevepx
mine is the genuine item....
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(stevepx @ 27th September 2012 14:46) *
I'm no expert but isn't the MAF just there to monitor the air flow, tell the ECU what is happening and the ECU then modifies the fuel mixture.. Would it really make any difference as so far the MAF's i've looked at are for 1.6, 1.8 or 2.0.. There is nothing wrong with my MAF its relatively new. Just a thought really..

The 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 plastic top engines all use the same MAF (Bosch part number 0280218019). What happens if you drive with it unplugged?
black 146
QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 27th September 2012 17:01) *
The 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 plastic top engines all use the same MAF (Bosch part number 0280218019). What happens if you drive with it unplugged?




maybe i just needed a new maff then ?. but i never had a problem with mine just seemed to a lot on fuel so as you say. it needs a remap
but when i took mine to rally tech he told me it will run a bit better but not that much faster so he did not get my money blush.gif no3.gif
i think he had some think better to do on a satday
stevepx
QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 27th September 2012 17:01) *
The 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 plastic top engines all use the same MAF (Bosch part number 0280218019). What happens if you drive with it unplugged?


Haven't tried it with out the MAF to be honest I just figured the ECU is programed a certain way but with the longer duration cams etc it might need a little help fueling.

I'll unplug it and see....
The Wombat
QUOTE(stevepx @ 27th September 2012 14:46) *
I'm no expert but isn't the MAF just there to monitor the air flow, tell the ECU what is happening and the ECU then modifies the fuel mixture.. Would it really make any difference as so far the MAF's i've looked at are for 1.6, 1.8 or 2.0.. There is nothing wrong with my MAF its relatively new. Just a thought really..

Do you know if the 1.6, 1.8, and 2.0 MAFs are the same part number (could look on EPER but not enough time). If they are, they pretty much guaranteed the 1.6 MAF would be fine. If they are different art numbers, there will be a reason, possible the diameter, possible the signal range from the MAF.

The other thing to consider with the MAF is the ECU itself. Fuel maps for the different size engines are probably quite similar, but it is possible that at the limits, they are somewhat different. For example, the 2.5 12v V6 ECU runs my 3.0 24v engine fine with some adjustments to the barn door AFM, but the ECU has a 6500rpm red line, and the map leans out at the upper end of the rev range because for the air volume that the 12v needs at higher rpm, the 24v needs to add more fuel.

Not sure if that addresses the exact problem, but hope its useful.
stevepx
QUOTE(The Wombat @ 27th September 2012 20:22) *
Do you know if the 1.6, 1.8, and 2.0 MAFs are the same part number (could look on EPER but not enough time). If they are, they pretty much guaranteed the 1.6 MAF would be fine. If they are different art numbers, there will be a reason, possible the diameter, possible the signal range from the MAF.

The other thing to consider with the MAF is the ECU itself. Fuel maps for the different size engines are probably quite similar, but it is possible that at the limits, they are somewhat different. For example, the 2.5 12v V6 ECU runs my 3.0 24v engine fine with some adjustments to the barn door AFM, but the ECU has a 6500rpm red line, and the map leans out at the upper end of the rev range because for the air volume that the 12v needs at higher rpm, the 24v needs to add more fuel.

Not sure if that addresses the exact problem, but hope its useful.



Yeah as per GE post, the part numbers are the same so MAF not an issue..

I think a remap is the only total solution, it's running at about 90% of what I think it's capable of and as said feels a little sluggish high in the rev range. Thanks for the information though it kinda confirms what I thought.... smile.gif
stevepx
Head Gasket failure today.....less than 200 miles since all the head work was completed, no warning what so ever pulled up at traffic lights and with in seconds temp guage was on 130! Pulled over immediately and turned it off. Car is back with my mechanic who is shocked and annoyed to say the least. Head to be stripped down to find out why it has failed. This is the last straw with my 146.... Feel like just weighing it in and finding something else....well unhappy at the moment...
black 146
QUOTE(stevepx @ 3rd October 2012 18:54) *
Head Gasket failure today.....less than 200 miles since all the head work was completed, no warning what so ever pulled up at traffic lights and with in seconds temp guage was on 130! Pulled over immediately and turned it off. Car is back with my mechanic who is shocked and annoyed to say the least. Head to be stripped down to find out why it has failed. This is the last straw with my 146.... Feel like just weighing it in and finding something else....well unhappy at the moment...




join the the club m8
i felt like you are now. but once i got her up and run with help from a really GOOD m8 on here i started to smile once i put my foot down
is the guy who done the joby going to help out at all ?
Fin
QUOTE(stevepx @ 3rd October 2012 18:54) *
Head Gasket failure today.....less than 200 miles since all the head work was completed, no warning what so ever pulled up at traffic lights and with in seconds temp guage was on 130! Pulled over immediately and turned it off.

Oh s**t... sad.gif
QUOTE(stevepx @ 3rd October 2012 18:54) *
Car is back with my mechanic who is shocked and annoyed to say the least. Head to be stripped down to find out why it has failed. This is the last straw with my 146.... Feel like just weighing it in and finding something else....well unhappy at the moment...

Did you have the replacement head skimmed, pressure tested and/or welded? Head gasket failure is fairly rare on these engines, but if the surface of the head is warped or damaged in any way and not repaired properly, the gasket will fail...
black 146
QUOTE(Fin @ 3rd October 2012 23:26) *
Oh s**t... sad.gif

Did you have the replacement head skimmed, pressure tested and/or welded? Head gasket failure is fairly rare on these engines, but if the surface of the head is warped or damaged in any way and not repaired properly, the gasket will fail...



i had a over heating problem when mine wen't angry.gif
stevepx
The head was skimmed and had a small weld done so assume it was all done correctly, won't know much until the head is removed. Not sure what my mechanic is gonna do, if its his fault then I guess there won't be a further bill, if the weld has failed then I guess he will bill the engineering company.... Just have to see what he finds out but it makes me feel like I can't rely on the car any more I guess all I seem to do is shell out on this car at the moment......
stevepx
Update....head removed and gasket well and truly blown!!!

We couldn't understand what was going on but seemed localised to cylinder 3...

Using some engineers blue on the head and mated it with the block to find some high (or low) points around number 3 cylinder!!!!! was not in contact with the block.........really really strange!! for piece of mind tried another JTS head and it mated flat and square with the block so we know there is nothing amiss with the block so some how the head is not true...... now my mechanic, who is an alfa specialist, said he has never seen anything like this.. can only summise that when the head was skimmed some how the engineering company have taken too much off the head around cylinder 3 to make it uneven...is that at all possible?? so head is back to engineers to be measured and checked and hopefully sorted out...what a complete PITA................. no.gif
Fin
That's a bit odd. It depends on what machine they used, but usually you would use a vertical milling machine. The head would be bolted on to a bed and then would be moved around while the milling head takes off a fine layer, which as long as the head didn't move on the bed, would be totally flat and true. Maybe the operator didn't clamp it properly...
black 146
QUOTE(Fin @ 7th October 2012 20:31) *
That's a bit odd. It depends on what machine they used, but usually you would use a vertical milling machine. The head would be bolted on to a bed and then would be moved around while the milling head takes off a fine layer, which as long as the head didn't move on the bed, would be totally flat and true. Maybe the operator didn't clamp it properly...




that's what i thought there was no way that they would go deeper on just part of the head as fin said. it's all bolted down
and do you think it may have bin torqued down in the wrong way and it happened when it got to hot ?. not saying the guy dose not no what he's doing but got a train'y on it?
stevepx
No idea fella's, could have jumped out of the jig when it was being skimmed or just locked in on a wonky angle or something, my mechanic again could have made an error but he said it simple wasn't flush with the block so even if he did make an error it wouldn't have cause the whole head to twist.. who knows, just gotta wait for the phone call to say what is happening......
stevepx
So the saga continues!!

Have got my '46 back, its now running the original 1600 head which has been welded to make good but I now have the 1800/2000 cams in place (like Kirk) but ANOTHER problem seems to have manifested itself.. Only got it Saturday but there seems to be pretty much no hot air coming in through the heater vents, just a little warm so I drained down the coolant system and refilled it to make sure there wasn't any air trapped and still no good I changed the valve a few months ago so I know it's good..I also noticed that taking the cap off the header tank didn't result in the water bubbling all over the place leading me to believe that the water pump is now FUBAR..would I be correct with my assumption and how damaging is it to drive in this state?? GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
Cloverleaf76
QUOTE(stevepx @ 15th October 2012 13:43) *
So the saga continues!!

Have got my '46 back, its now running the original 1600 head which has been welded to make good but I now have the 1800/2000 cams in place (like Kirk) but ANOTHER problem seems to have manifested itself.. Only got it Saturday but there seems to be pretty much no hot air coming in through the heater vents, just a little warm so I drained down the coolant system and refilled it to make sure there wasn't any air trapped and still no good I changed the valve a few months ago so I know it's good..I also noticed that taking the cap off the header tank didn't result in the water bubbling all over the place leading me to believe that the water pump is now FUBAR..would I be correct with my assumption and how damaging is it to drive in this state?? GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!


What temp shows on the gauge?
Fin
QUOTE(stevepx @ 15th October 2012 13:43) *
So the saga continues!!

Have got my '46 back, its now running the original 1600 head which has been welded to make good

Mildly worrying! This is what I did with mine originally, it did actually last for 50k miles but let go when I raced a Porsche!

QUOTE(stevepx @ 15th October 2012 13:43) *
ANOTHER problem seems to have manifested itself.. Only got it Saturday but there seems to be pretty much no hot air coming in through the heater vents, just a little warm
so I drained down the coolant system and refilled it to make sure there wasn't any air trapped and still no good I changed the valve a few months ago so I know it's good..I also noticed that taking the cap off the header tank didn't result in the water bubbling all over the place leading me to believe that the water pump is now FUBAR..would I be correct with my assumption and how damaging is it to drive in this state?? GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!


If you disconnect the little pipe that goes into the header tank, you should get a bit of water flowing when you rev the engine. Re-fitting a water pump that could be suspect or has been subjected to overheating is a pretty stupid idea. Perhaps you should change your mechanic. If the cooling system is operating properly, it should be pressurised once it is at the correct operating temperature. If yours isn't pressurising then you have a leak somewhere, so check round all the pipes while the engine is hot.

As for the heater temperature and all that, what does the temp gauge on the dash do? Does the car get up to temp and stay there? Does it fluctuate depending on how fast or slow you drive?

I'd be inclined to look at/change the thermostat if you haven't done that already. Let me know how you get on!
stevepx
Ok, so the temp gauge is actually pretty good, gets to around 90 and sticks there, as soon as it starts going up the fan cuts in and with in about 15 seconds its back to 90 again. Just took the top hose off Fin as suggested and there is a flow of coolant, so I guess the pump is OK. Just very nervous about it at the moment following the double failure....I'll keep my eye on it and report back if anything else is a miss. The air temp from the heater is getting ever so slightly warmer, its definatley not as hot as before but maybe it will improve with time, it better with winter just around the corner. As for the engine performance with the new CAMS in place, yeah not has good as with the 1800 head but i certainly can feel a difference...wants to be rev'ed though as pretty gutless under 2500 rpm...... Thanks again guys
black 146
QUOTE(stevepx @ 16th October 2012 13:30) *
Ok, so the temp gauge is actually pretty good, gets to around 90 and sticks there, as soon as it starts going up the fan cuts in and with in about 15 seconds its back to 90 again. Just took the top hose off Fin as suggested and there is a flow of coolant, so I guess the pump is OK. Just very nervous about it at the moment following the double failure....I'll keep my eye on it and report back if anything else is a miss. The air temp from the heater is getting ever so slightly warmer, its definatley not as hot as before but maybe it will improve with time, it better with winter just around the corner. As for the engine performance with the new CAMS in place, yeah not has good as with the 1800 head but i certainly can feel a difference...wants to be rev'ed though as pretty gutless under 2500 rpm...... Thanks again guys





did you try to keep pumping the the bottom hose to see if that was getting as the top one is
do you know how much anti freeze went in
stevepx
Right, taken advice from Fin....new Thermostat ordered from Shop4Parts..heater still not getting very warm..slightly concernd also that the temp is quite regularly going above 90 on a run, not hammering, constant 80mph and every 5 mins the needle started edging up....
black 146
QUOTE(stevepx @ 17th October 2012 16:07) *
Right, taken advice from Fin....new Thermostat ordered from Shop4Parts..heater still not getting very warm..slightly concernd also that the temp is quite regularly going above 90 on a run, not hammering, constant 80mph and every 5 mins the needle started edging up....





is the top hose from the rad as hot as the bottom one as i said i had the same problem getting up to speed whistle.gif
stevepx
QUOTE(black 146 @ 17th October 2012 17:41) *
is the top hose from the rad as hot as the bottom one as i said i had the same problem getting up to speed whistle.gif


Sorry Black146, no it's not, it's getting quite hot but not near as hot as the top hose.............suspect thermostat???
black 146
QUOTE(stevepx @ 18th October 2012 11:26) *
Sorry Black146, no it's not, it's getting quite hot but not near as hot as the top hose.............suspect thermostat???






i thought that !. but i put two in from car with out a problem
that's why it went down to clearing that small air lock out
Smallville
QUOTE(stevepx @ 15th October 2012 13:43) *
So the saga continues!!

Have got my '46 back, its now running the original 1600 head which has been welded to make good but I now have the 1800/2000 cams in place (like Kirk) but ANOTHER problem seems to have manifested itself.. Only got it Saturday but there seems to be pretty much no hot air coming in through the heater vents, just a little warm so I drained down the coolant system and refilled it to make sure there wasn't any air trapped and still no good I changed the valve a few months ago so I know it's good..I also noticed that taking the cap off the header tank didn't result in the water bubbling all over the place leading me to believe that the water pump is now FUBAR..would I be correct with my assumption and how damaging is it to drive in this state?? GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!


Sounds like a problem with your thermostat, as my QV wouldn't blow hot air out so changed the stat and sorted smile.gif
stevepx
Ok, well New stat on its way, will be really careful to make sure I get any and all air out of the system...
Hopefully this will be the last thing I need to do for a while....thanks guys for all your input and suggestions...
Fin
QUOTE(stevepx @ 18th October 2012 18:52) *
Ok, well New stat on its way, will be really careful to make sure I get any and all air out of the system...
Hopefully this will be the last thing I need to do for a while....thanks guys for all your input and suggestions...

I'm really hoping it is the thermostat, usually a nice easy 3 part to change, sadly a bit more expensive on these engines! Seeing as it is a weak point, a stupid two-stage affair and your particular one has been subjected to overheating, a replacement should hopefully sort it all out!

As for air in of the system, get the header tank to the correct level, run the engine until it gets hot then top it up. You shouldn't really have to bleed it anywhere although on some radiators there is a bleed screw on the side near the tank.
stevepx
f**king thing did it again!!! Changed the thermostat for a brand new item, careful to fill the system up with coolant and let it all run up to temperature, everything seemed fine, even getting more hot air through the vents, and today on the M25 of all places having driven steady for 80 miles the temp gauge went from 90 to 130 in about 10 seconds.....I pulled over immediately and called the AA...after getting home found that the water level has only gone down a little and can see any signs of water in the engine (although that might appear later) started it up, it's a bit lumpy but nothing too bad...I'm going to run it up tomorrow and leave it ticking over for an hour or so to see if anything happens....I'm at a loss, the head is fine, the block is fine, new thermostat.....what else is there!!!!??? sad.gif sad.gif
black 146
QUOTE(stevepx @ 23rd October 2012 18:09) *
f**king thing did it again!!! Changed the thermostat for a brand new item, careful to fill the system up with coolant and let it all run up to temperature, everything seemed fine, even getting more hot air through the vents, and today on the M25 of all places having driven steady for 80 miles the temp gauge went from 90 to 130 in about 10 seconds.....I pulled over immediately and called the AA...after getting home found that the water level has only gone down a little and can see any signs of water in the engine (although that might appear later) started it up, it's a bit lumpy but nothing too bad...I'm going to run it up tomorrow and leave it ticking over for an hour or so to see if anything happens....I'm at a loss, the head is fine, the block is fine, new thermostat.....what else is there!!!!??? sad.gif sad.gif





i know i keep going on but what's the temp on the hoses and how are you bleeding it
have you clear the rad out ? or i would to to stick a rad flush in i done some cars where i run it till hot then leave it over night then get it to temp before you empty it
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