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Alfa Romeo 145 - 146 Forum > Technical > ICE Lounge
kirk46
right peeps....

helped my mate find a car the other week as he wrote his off ohmy.gif

anyway he got one and it had 6' x 9's (sony) in the parcel shelf.... and f**k me they sound awesome!! its like having a sub in the boot but its not taking any space up biggrin.gif

but i dont want em in the parcel shelf (to chavy) whistle.gif

but the question is where can i put them? unsure.gif
Smallville
You can get 'acoustic stealth parcel shelves' like in the link....

http://www.106owners.co.uk/forums/showthre...th-6x9-speakers
kirk46
i looked on the website where he got it from and they dont do any for alfa's sad.gif
Hybrd
If you cut the holes in your shelf, secure the 6x9's from underneath and re-carpet the top of the shelf they will be invisible yet just as good smile.gif

Every car i've ever fitted 6x9's to bar my mate Golf (which we made a custom shelf for) was done in this way smile.gif
NaanBread
make sure you use an amp to power the speakers, otherwise it wont really sound that much better.
kirk46
QUOTE(Hybrd @ 12th February 2012 19:28) *
If you cut the holes in your shelf, secure the 6x9's from underneath and re-carpet the top of the shelf they will be invisible yet just as good smile.gif

Every car i've ever fitted 6x9's to bar my mate Golf (which we made a custom shelf for) was done in this way smile.gif



wont the shelf be to flimsy for the speakers Adam? will it ruin the bass?

also hmmm interesting my shelf does look abit tatty maybe re covering it will look good coolio.gif
Hybrd
Possibly, If im honest i've never seen a 146 parcel shelf of felt what its made of...................

Another idea is to make one, piece of MDF cut to shape the go with the above mounting and trimming idea smile.gif
kirk46
really nath? im sure thos i heard dont have an amp

ive been looking into that also Adam

cheers
Macca
nah you can wire your 6x9's into your stereo and if you have a decent one it will sound ok.. but if its quality and depth of sound you want an amp is the way forward, it makes the world of difference
Hybrd
QUOTE(Macca @ 12th February 2012 19:52) *
nah you can wire your 6x9's into your stereo and if you have a decent one it will sound ok.. but if its quality and depth of sound you want an amp is the way forward, it makes the world of difference


+1

Buy the best 6x9's you can afford and match the power rating well, under powering a speaker will have just as bad an effect as over powering it smile.gif
kirk46
ok guys il get my thinking cap on laugh.gif

Macca
QUOTE(Hybrd @ 12th February 2012 19:55) *
+1

Buy the best 6x9's you can afford and match the power rating well, under powering a speaker will have just as bad an effect as over powering it smile.gif


+1.. what he said!

Plus I hate admitting this always but Naan beat us to the ounch and he was right first.. eugh
kirk46
laugh.gif

what about THESE?

you can buy the boxes on there own also
NaanBread
look on ebay, there will be someone selling 6x9s with the appropriate amp for cheap enough I would of thought lol
Macca
QUOTE(NaanBread @ 12th February 2012 20:40) *
look on ebay, there will be someone selling 6x9s with the appropriate amp for cheap enough I would of thought lol


Roger dodger.. its suprising how much good ICE ends up on fleabay for peanuts.. have a mooch!
kirk46
well i can only browse atm laugh.gif
romesolution
Like this you mean.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kenwood-6x9s-Cro...=item3371b5f58d
kreidlerhansen
If you're looking to make a parcel shelf why not fit a pair of 8" coax units?

Come Spring, I'll be fitting a 10" sub (Hertz Mille Free-Air) and my Audison SRx3 as I don't like having detail coming from the rear, thus sub only and the rear speakers will be disconnected. Doesn't sound right to me and I've always been seriously unimpressed with 6x9s.

Pioneer's headunits w/Direct Sub Drive is a great feature as well, allowing you to hook up a single 2Ohm speaker to one of the rear channels (NOT both!) and 70WRMS peak isn't bad at all. A set of 8" 4Ohm speakers wired in parallel would bring plenty of bass, though a good amp and 8" sub would be even better. coolio.gif


I'm not trying to be rude, but...
When going through the trouble of running cables for an amp and making a new shelf, I see little point in not fitting a dedicated sub. A good 3/4/5ch amp can easily be set up to feed the original speakers and a sub with little extra effort. Most 8" subs wheigh about the same as a pair of massive-magnet-6x9-bragging-speakers anyway, so should removing the shelf and speaker be necessary it's no more of a hassle. A stealth shelf is still possible and all one needs to do is countersink the speaker a bit more.

If power cable size is an issue, there is absolutely no harm in wiring the speakers in series to raise impedance and drop current draw. Even at 8Ohms allround any decent amp will play plenty loud while the lesser current draw will be easier on both amp, speakers, battery... and you'll only need to run one pair of cables from the rear to the front.

Unless building a competition car, both 1 and 2Ohm setups seem more like bragging points than anything else. IMHO, that is. blush.gif
kirk46
well to answer that i dont want a sub in the boot biggrin.gif laugh.gif
langers
I was talking to a mate last week about Vibe "Slim" Active subs, its a 10" sub that you can put under a seat??? worth a look maybe?
Smallville
QUOTE(langers @ 13th February 2012 12:38) *
I was talking to a mate last week about Vibe "Slim" Active subs, its a 10" sub that you can put under a seat??? worth a look maybe?


Alpine also does the same Kirk, deffo worth a look if your after more bass smile.gif
kirk46
QUOTE(langers @ 13th February 2012 12:38) *
I was talking to a mate last week about Vibe "Slim" Active subs, its a 10" sub that you can put under a seat??? worth a look maybe?



i look at something similar a while back i even posted it on here and was told not to bother lol

link HERE
Hybrd
They're not great, the volumetric size of the box the sub is in makes a huge difference to the sound it will make, too small it will sound cak, to big and it'll sound cak, the slim setup buts form over function to offer a small package but as your mrs will tell you a small package will get you nowhere laugh.gif

They simply don't have enough air behind them to do there job properly sad.gif
kirk46
QUOTE(Hybrd @ 13th February 2012 19:11) *
They're not great, the volumetric size of the box the sub is in makes a huge difference to the sound it will make, too small it will sound cak, to big and it'll sound cak, the slim setup buts form over function to offer a small package but as your mrs will tell you a small package will get you nowhere laugh.gif

They simply don't have enough air behind them to do there job properly sad.gif



laugh.gif

i tell you the missus isnt complaining laugh.gif

yeah didnt think they where any good tbh..
kreidlerhansen
QUOTE(kirk46 @ 13th February 2012 12:59) *
well to answer that i dont want a sub in the boot biggrin.gif laugh.gif


So much for reading everything you wrote - sorry, lol! I managed to interpret it as though you wanted to make a custom shelf and fit an amp + 6x9s!

Though it would be a rather extensive job, I'd go for modifying the standard holes. It's not hard to do, just a few days work and once everything's in place it's all worthwhile!
kirk46
QUOTE(kreidlerhansen @ 13th February 2012 22:18) *
So much for reading everything you wrote - sorry, lol! I managed to interpret it as though you wanted to make a custom shelf and fit an amp + 6x9s!

Though it would be a rather extensive job, I'd go for modifying the standard holes. It's not hard to do, just a few days work and once everything's in place it's all worthwhile!


laugh.gif

standard holes? in the doors??
kreidlerhansen
QUOTE(kirk46 @ 14th February 2012 00:31) *
laugh.gif

standard holes? in the doors??


Yup. Fibreglass helps create wonders, though turning the doors into sub enclosures is not recommended - trust me on that one! But making a pair of 8" or 6x9s fit is possible and since you don't want a boot sub nor fit a custom shelf, I think you're out of easy-to-do neat looking options. Unless you're willing to punch a big hole in the rear seat's back rest to fit a free-air sub... wink.gif
kirk46
QUOTE(kreidlerhansen @ 14th February 2012 09:38) *
Yup. Fibreglass helps create wonders, though turning the doors into sub enclosures is not recommended - trust me on that one! But making a pair of 8" or 6x9s fit is possible and since you don't want a boot sub nor fit a custom shelf, I think you're out of easy-to-do neat looking options. Unless you're willing to punch a big hole in the rear seat's back rest to fit a free-air sub... wink.gif



i didint say i didnt want to do a stealth shelf biggrin.gif
kreidlerhansen
QUOTE(kirk46 @ 14th February 2012 11:48) *
i didint say i didnt want to do a stealth shelf biggrin.gif


That's it! No more commenting when only using my bloody iPhone to read forums, lol!

Stealth shelf, countersunk 8" free-air sub, amp it all up, SORTED! tongue.gif
kirk46
laugh.gif tongue.gif

im struggling to find an 8in sub sad.gif
langers
Try here:

http://caraudiosecurity.com/shop/product_l...subwoofers.html


That GTO is quite cheap for what it is...
kirk46
QUOTE(langers @ 14th February 2012 12:43) *
Try here:

http://caraudiosecurity.com/shop/product_l...subwoofers.html
That GTO is quite cheap for what it is...



cool book marked biggrin.gif
langers
Dependant on pennies:

MDF Stealth Shelf, some nice 6x9's / coaxials / compoments, and an 8" sub all powered by a 4 channel amp. 2 channels to power the speakers and the other 2 bridged to power the sub.

Would make for quite a nice design. If you design it good enough, you could fasten the amp to the bottom of the shelf and so you wont lose any space and nobody would ever know.
kirk46
QUOTE(langers @ 14th February 2012 13:01) *
Dependant on pennies:

MDF Stealth Shelf, some nice 6x9's / coaxials / compoments, and an 8" sub all powered by a 4 channel amp. 2 channels to power the speakers and the other 2 bridged to power the sub.

Would make for quite a nice design. If you design it good enough, you could fasten the amp to the bottom of the shelf and so you wont lose any space and nobody would ever know.



pennies are none existent atm lol

ill be happy with just a bit more bass smile.gif
kreidlerhansen
QUOTE(langers @ 14th February 2012 14:01) *
Dependant on pennies:

MDF Stealth Shelf, some nice 6x9's / coaxials / compoments, and an 8" sub all powered by a 4 channel amp. 2 channels to power the speakers and the other 2 bridged to power the sub.

Would make for quite a nice design. If you design it good enough, you could fasten the amp to the bottom of the shelf and so you wont lose any space and nobody would ever know.


Why the extra rear speakers in the shelf, when there's room for a pair of 6.5" coax in the rear doors? smile.gif

Though 'a little extra bass' is a subective matter, I strongly beleive that a single 8" in the shelf will be a very good upgrade!


I'll be building a fibreglass box over the wheel arch to minimize loss of boot space. Most of the space above the arches aren't of much use anyway and there are plenty very good 10-12" subs that are designed to work perfectly in 10-15L boxes! Even the cheap Hertz Energy series are rather impressive. DynAudio and Peerless as well, though they're in a different price range.
langers
Forgot about the rears in the doors!
kirk46
laugh.gif

i have decent speakers in the front...

the back ones are on the to do list like most other things biggrin.gif
kreidlerhansen
QUOTE(kirk46 @ 14th February 2012 22:26) *
laugh.gif

i have decent speakers in the front...

the back ones are on the to do list like most other things biggrin.gif


I'd put them on hold for now and focus on getting more bass. Upgrading the rears makes little difference when the fronts are already done.
Also, when fitting a sub you can mess about with the high- and lowpass filters, thus letting the sub handle the deeper notes which in turn lets the mid-woofers play with much better control. The sound stage changes drastically once all speakers play what they can actually handle!

I found myself playing much louder in my Seicento once everything was set up properly. Not because it could, but because everything sounded much better with no distortion. Keep that in mind, lol!

What is the width of you parcel shelf? I'm considering going this route as well, though with my Hertz ML2500... Thinking my own advice through it struck me that making a sandwhich-structure with carbon mat, a few aluminium rods, some bitumen strips and these cheap, thin foam 'camping mattresses' ought to be both light and rigid enough if built right. Carbon fibre's not that expensive and doesn't need to look perfect in a stealth shelf! I'll need to strengthen the mounts on my 145 as one's got a will of its own... Definetely an Alfa, lol!
kirk46
QUOTE(kreidlerhansen @ 14th February 2012 22:57) *
I'd put them on hold for now and focus on getting more bass. Upgrading the rears makes little difference when the fronts are already done.
Also, when fitting a sub you can mess about with the high- and lowpass filters, thus letting the sub handle the deeper notes which in turn lets the mid-woofers play with much better control. The sound stage changes drastically once all speakers play what they can actually handle!

I found myself playing much louder in my Seicento once everything was set up properly. Not because it could, but because everything sounded much better with no distortion. Keep that in mind, lol!

What is the width of you parcel shelf? I'm considering going this route as well, though with my Hertz ML2500... Thinking my own advice through it struck me that making a sandwhich-structure with carbon mat, a few aluminium rods, some bitumen strips and these cheap, thin foam 'camping mattresses' ought to be both light and rigid enough if built right. Carbon fibre's not that expensive and doesn't need to look perfect in a stealth shelf! I'll need to strengthen the mounts on my 145 as one's got a will of its own... Definetely an Alfa, lol!


blink.gif

i know nothing about subs atm laugh.gif

erm ive no idea what the width of the shelf is atm....

im going to cut out a hole for the sub, make an mdf template and attach it to the shelf then cover the shelf in acoustic carpet

hopefully that will do the job
kreidlerhansen
QUOTE(kirk46 @ 15th February 2012 00:43) *
blink.gif

i know nothing about subs atm laugh.gif

erm ive no idea what the width of the shelf is atm....

im going to cut out a hole for the sub, make an mdf template and attach it to the shelf then cover the shelf in acoustic carpet

hopefully that will do the job


Keeping it simple always works. No idea why I've never gone down that route TBH...

HighPass Filter/HPF = how low frequencies your mids and tweeters are limited to.

LowPass/LPF = how high frequencies the sub's limited to.

The fronts may be able to play e.g. 50hz but will likely distort at relatively low volume. Keeping the above 80hz will then increase max volume before the sound breaks up. The same goes for the sub but the other way around. Finding the sweet-spot between fronts and sub allows louder music and better sound. There's more to it than this, but going deeper into this subject is extensive to the point of religion...


Oh, and I meant depth and width of the shelf. Was thinking of the possibility of making the shelf into a box. Even a quite flat design will have a fair amount of volume... But that's just me going nuts and over-thinking/-desisgning everything. Please forgive, lol... I just live this stuff!
kirk46
QUOTE(kreidlerhansen @ 15th February 2012 00:06) *
Keeping it simple always works. No idea why I've never gone down that route TBH...

HighPass Filter/HPF = how low frequencies your mids and tweeters are limited to.

LowPass/LPF = how high frequencies the sub's limited to.

The fronts may be able to play e.g. 50hz but will likely distort at relatively low volume. Keeping the above 80hz will then increase max volume before the sound breaks up. The same goes for the sub but the other way around. Finding the sweet-spot between fronts and sub allows louder music and better sound. There's more to it than this, but going deeper into this subject is extensive to the point of religion...
Oh, and I meant depth and width of the shelf. Was thinking of the possibility of making the shelf into a box. Even a quite flat design will have a fair amount of volume... But that's just me going nuts and over-thinking/-desisgning everything. Please forgive, lol... I just live this stuff!



ok... il keep that in mind

and laugh.gif
kirk46
here are pics of the 146.gif's parcel shelf





look like it will be easy to do with the recess smile.gif

one side for the sub and the other side to attach the amp?

will i get away just using MDF on the sub's side?
kreidlerhansen
Strengthen the lot with MDF. I'd reinforce with fibreglass either side of the shelf after fitting MDF where amp and sub are going. Building an X-frame to fit underneath adds great strength, is a simple design and won't wheigh much.
kirk46
QUOTE(kreidlerhansen @ 16th February 2012 13:02) *
Strengthen the lot with MDF. I'd reinforce with fibreglass either side of the shelf after fitting MDF where amp and sub are going. Building an X-frame to fit underneath adds great strength, is a simple design and won't wheigh much.


fibreglass?

hmmmmm
kreidlerhansen
QUOTE(kirk46 @ 16th February 2012 14:06) *
fibreglass?

hmmmmm


Yup! An X-frame underneath + mdf-ring for the sub and a square piece of mdf for the amp. Two layers of fibreglass, over- and underside. That should make it rigid enough to support the weight and minimise vibration/resonans. It's a very simple structure and shouldn't take more than two days, most of which'll be waiting for the resin to dry/harden.

Just sticking the amp and sub in there will make the shelf collapse over time. The alternative route is fitting a pair of 8" JBL coax and running them through the correct filter to let them play below 100-120hz only. Bass won't be as powerful as with a sub, but it'll be nice and tight.
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