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Alfa Romeo 145 - 146 Forum > Technical > ECU Diagnostics
67duetto
Does anyone know of anything similar for Alfas?

http://www.topbuzz.co.uk/info/fault_codes/...codes.htm#bosch
GialloEvo94
The 145/146 with the Phase 1 Twin Spark (alloy top) engine has a Bosch Motronic M2.10.x ECU which doesn't comply with OBD2 standards and uses it's own set of custom fault codes. The fault codes produced by the M2.10.x ECU are shown below:-

CODE
Decimal Code   Hexadecimal Code   Description
------------   ----------------   --------------------------------------------------
001            01                 ECU Internal Ram Error
002            02                 Idle Actuator (Closing Winding)
003            03                 Fuel Pump Relay
004            04                 Idle Actuator (Opening Winding)
005            05                 Engine RPM Sensor [Crankshaft Position Sensor]
006            06                 ECU Rom / Eprom Error
007            07                 Air Flow Meter
008            08                 Engine Timing Sensor [Camshaft Position Sensor]
009            09                 Vehicle Speed Sensor
012            0C                 Throttle Potentiometer
022            16                 Timing Variator
024            18                 Cooling Fan
026            1A                 Sensor Integrator (FR)
028            1C                 Lambda Sensor
034            22                 Purge Cannister
037            25                 Battery Voltage
044            2C                 Air Temperature Sensor
045            2D                 Water / Engine Temperature Sensor
102            66                 FRA Self-Adaptation Parameters
103            67                 DTV Self-Adaptation Parameters
104            68                 TRA Self-Adaptation Parameters
128            80                 Knock Sensor
137            89                 Pressure Sensor
143            8F                 Knock Evaluation Circuit
200            C8                 Electronic Key (Immobiliser)
225            E1                 Injector Cylinder 1
226            E2                 Injector Cylinder 2
227            E3                 Injector Cylinder 3
228            E4                 Injector Cylinder 4


The 145/146 with the Phase 2 Twin Spark (plastic top) engine has a Bosch Motronic M1.5.5 ECU which complies with the OBD2 standard. However, not all the OBD2 codes are used by the M1.5.5 ECU and the subset actually used are shown below:-

CODE
OBD2 Code   Description
---------   --------------------------------------------------
P0100       Air Flow Meter
P0105       Pressure Sensor in Manifold
P0110       Air Temperature Sensor
P0115       Water Temperature Sensor
P0120       Throttle Valve Potentiometer (DKG)
P0130       Lambda Sensor
P0170       Lambda Regulation
P0201       Injector Cylinder 1
P0202       Injector Cylinder 2
P0203       Injector Cylinder 3
P0204       Injector Cylinder 4
P0230       Fuel Pump Relay
P0325       Knock Sensor
P0335       Engine RPM Sensor [Crankshaft Position Sensor]
P0336       Reference Mark (teeth == 60)
P0340       Engine Timing Sensor [Camshaft Position Sensor]
P0443       Canister
P0480       Fan 1 Relay
P0481       Fan 2 Relay
P0483       Fans Control
P0500       Vehicle Speed Sensor
P0560       Battery Voltage
P0605       ECU Rom / Eprom Error
P0654       TD Signal for Rev Counter
P0655       Engine Coolant Over Temperature Warning Light
P1171       Self-Adaptation Parameters DTV
P1172       Self-Adaptation Parameters TRA
P1173       Self-Adaptation Parameters FRA
P1325       Knock Evaluation Circuit
P1511       Throttle Valve Potentiometer MDS (DKS)
P1512       MDS Motor Blocked
P1513       MDS Final Stage
P1531       Conditioner Compressor Relay
P1653       Timing Variator
P1654       Modular Manifold
U1600       Immobiliser
67duetto
QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 28th June 2008 13:37) *
The 145/146 with the Phase 1 Twin Spark (alloy top) engine has a Bosch Motronic M2.10.x ECU which doesn't comply with OBD2 standards and uses it's own set of custom fault codes.

But is there a way of reading them without a reader? Does the paper clip trick apply to all Bosch Motronic ECUs?
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(67duetto @ 29th June 2008 07:19) *
But is there a way of reading them without a reader? Does the paper clip trick apply to all Bosch Motronic ECUs?

No because the OBD diagnostics connector on the 145/146 is only a 3-pin connector with a 2-wire connection to the ECU. It doesn't use the standard 16-pin OBD connector. Therefore you need a electronic or software-based reader to get the codes.
alanthealfa
QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 29th June 2008 09:06) *
No because the OBD diagnostics connector on the 145/146 is only a 3-pin connector with a 2-wire connection to the ECU. It doesn't use the standard 16-pin OBD connector. Therefore you need a electronic or software-based reader to get the codes.

reet, i'm just startign to get my self organised to get some kit, software etc for reading the fault codes on my 146.
Can some one please do an idiots guide, ie what plugs, sofwtare, etc etc are required which combinatiosn work etc. i've read stacks of info and am somewhat confused, most of the obd readers i have seen use the 16 pin plug, is there a way of converting the 16 pin to use the 3 pin?

secondly to this, has anyone any experience of reprogramming the ecu, theres stacks of kit and information but i'm new to the ecu game, i grew up with points, and carburetors,
give me a pair of SU's or a distributor and points any day of the week.
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(alanthealfa @ 1st July 2008 02:33) *
reet, i'm just startign to get my self organised to get some kit, software etc for reading the fault codes on my 146.
Can some one please do an idiots guide, ie what plugs, sofwtare, etc etc are required which combinatiosn work etc. i've read stacks of info and am somewhat confused, most of the obd readers i have seen use the 16 pin plug, is there a way of converting the 16 pin to use the 3 pin?

If you've got a plastic top engine which uses the Bosch Motronic M1.5.5 ECU then you can use AlfaDiag (~40) and get one of the following cables to interface between your laptop and the ECU...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...em=330247109805

If you've got the alloy top engine which uses the Bosch Motronic M2.10.3 or M2.10.4 ECU then the options are limited and the available software for that model which works will generally cost a grand or more. This is because the earlier ECU's don't use the industry standard OBD2 interface/protocol that the newer ECU's use so the software has to be specifically written to deal with those ECU's which is why there aren't many solutions around.

There is one piece of Russian software called UNISCAN / EUROSCAN that you can pick up for ~100-200 which comes with a special hardware interface (not the usual cable that works with other software) but it's pure DOS based (won't run under windows) and having already spent a considerable amount of time trying to get the software to work on my own laptop, it's seems to be an absolute nightmare to setup and get working and I so far I've been unsuccessful in getting it to run.

Your other option is one of the handheld devices but again these aren't cheap:-
  • The current one that Alfa dealers use a device called the Fiat Examiner. These cost over 3000 though and I don't believe just anyone can buy one. They also require regular software updates which are only available from Fiat.
  • The original Fiat Lancia Tester (called the FLT) which is now obsolete is what the dealers used to use. These are quite rare now though, although they do very occasionally come up secondhand on eBay but again expensive. There was one on there last week which sold for 550. The FLT uses plug-in pods so you would need one specific for the earlier model Alfas. Difficult to find if the device isn't already sold with the pod you require.
  • I believe the Bosch GTE1010 Diagnostic Tester will work but again very rare. The last one I saw for sale on eBay reached 410 but wasn't sold as it hadn't met the reserve price.
  • The Sykes Pikavant ACR4 Code Readers are supposed to be compatible but I don't know of anyone who's tried one on an earlier 145. Again, these use plug-in pods specific to the car you want to use them for so you would need to locate and purchase the correct pod that would be compatible with your ECU. You also need to but the correct harness to connect it to your car.
Unfortunately, none of the mini scanners/readers that you see in their hundreds on eBay will work.


QUOTE(alanthealfa @ 1st July 2008 02:33) *
secondly to this, has anyone any experience of reprogramming the ecu, theres stacks of kit and information but i'm new to the ecu game, i grew up with points, and carburetors

I'm afraid I have no actual experience of remapping the ECU. This is usually a very specialist job and requiring years of experience. If you get it wrong then there is a high chance of running the engine lean resulting in melted pistons and burbt valves. If you do go the route of attempting to do remapping yourself then one thing I do know is that you should definately invest in a wideband lamba.
returner
QUOTE(alanthealfa @ 1st July 2008 02:33) *
most of the obd readers i have seen use the 16 pin plug, is there a way of converting the 16 pin to use the 3 pin?

definately not if it is one of those handheld obd readers, you can get an adapter lead but it will only work on software that is capably of reading k/l line and eobd, cambus etc. the hand held units cannot read k/l line systems even if it says it on the box i garantee it wont work and is just a ploy to get you to buy it
145-BR
Alfadiag has just released a new version that supports the old M.2.10.X ECUs.

www.alfadiag.net

I need the pinout to make an adapter for the 3 pin connector to 16 pin OBD2 plug. Does anybody know?
Cloverleaf76
QUOTE(145-BR @ 2nd February 2009 15:01) *
Alfadiag has just released a new version that supports the old M.2.10.X ECUs.

www.alfadiag.net

I need the pinout to make an adapter for the 3 pin connector to 16 pin OBD2 plug. Does anybody know?


I bought a cable from this guy . It was serial to 3 pin plug cable - can't remember how much it was though...
145-BR
QUOTE(Cloverleaf76 @ 2nd February 2009 16:09) *
I bought a cable from this guy . It was serial to 3 pin plug cable - can't remember how much it was though...


I know, but it's sold out...I made an adaptation from my 16 pin OBD and it worked. I bought one from China today, but couldn't wait 2 weeks to try it! biggrin.gif

Thanks
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(145-BR @ 2nd February 2009 14:01) *
I need the pinout to make an adapter for the 3 pin connector to 16 pin OBD2 plug. Does anybody know?

Wiring to adapt the 16-pin OBDII plug on the interface lead to the Alfa 3-pin diagnostic connector will depend on which ECU you have...

If you have a Bosch Motronic M2.10.3 ECU:-
  • Pin 1 on Alfa Connector (Light Blue / White wire) -> Pin 5 on OBDII Connector
  • Pin 2 on Alfa Connector (Black wire) -> Pin 7 on OBDII Connector
  • Pin 3 on Alfa Connector (White / Red wire) -> Do not connect to anything
If you have a Bosch Motronic M2.10.4 ECU:-
  • Pin 1 on Alfa Connector -> Not Connected
  • Pin 2 on Alfa Connector (Black wire) -> Pin 7 on OBDII Connector
  • Pin 3 on Alfa Connector (White / Red wire) -> Pin 5 on OBDII Connector
If you have a Bosch Motronic M1.5.5 ECU:-
  • Pin 1 on Alfa Connector -> Not Connected
  • Pin 2 on Alfa Connector (Black wire) -> Pin 7 on OBDII Connector
  • Pin 3 on Alfa Connector (White / Yellow) -> Pin 5 on OBDII Connector
You must also take a wire from pin 16 on the OBDII interface lead to a +12v source (i.e. direct to the positive battery terminal).
145-BR
Thank you. I have M2.10.4 and I follow this:



I connected the black wire to pin 4 (should it be pin 5?) and the white wire to pin 7, and it worked...is that worng? But it did connect!
unsure.gif
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(145-BR @ 3rd February 2009 00:58) *
I connected the black wire to pin 4 (should it be pin 5?) and the white wire to pin 7, and it worked...is that worng? But it did connect!
unsure.gif

Pins 4 & 5 on the 16-pin OBDII connector are both connected to ground so you can actually use either one of those two pins. If you've used pin 4 then just leave it on that one smile.gif

There is only a "K" line on the Bosch Motronic ECUs which is why pin 15 ("L" line on some cars) is left unconnected.
145-BR
QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 2nd February 2009 22:05) *
Pins 4 & 5 on the 16-pin OBDII connector are both connected to ground so you can actually use either one of those two pins. If you've used pin 4 then just leave it on that one smile.gif

There is only a "K" line on the Bosch Motronic ECUs which is why pin 15 ("L" line on some cars) is left unconnected.


Thank you again. I got disconnected all the time, any tips? Do you think changing the ground to pin 5 could help?
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(145-BR @ 3rd February 2009 01:19) *
Thank you again. I got disconnected all the time, any tips? Do you think changing the ground to pin 5 could help?

No harm trying because it is the "official" pin to use for the data ground connection.

Is the interface cable you're using a USB one or does it have a real 9-pin Serial COM Port (RS232) plug on the end?
145-BR
QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 3rd February 2009 06:37) *
No harm trying because it is the "official" pin to use for the data ground connection.

Is the interface cable you're using a USB one or does it have a real 9-pin Serial COM Port (RS232) plug on the end?


I tested and the pins 4 and 5 are the same, they're connected, so it doesn't matter which one we use.

I use the USB interface from ECUFIX.
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(145-BR @ 3rd February 2009 16:24) *
I use the USB interface from ECUFIX.

Unfortunately AlfaDiag won't work reliably with a USB interface cable. This is due to non-standard baud rates that are needed to communicate with the ECU. A USB interface uses "emulated" RS232 communications by using a driver to convert USB to RS232 which is where some of the problems lie. You might be able to get a more stable connection if you change some of the FTDI driver settings (trial and error) but it still won't give you the same reliability as a real RS232 interface cable would.

Ideally you would be better off using a proper RS232 interface cable (9-Pin D-plug) but that will also require that your laptop has a real serial (COM) port on it.
145-BR
QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 3rd February 2009 15:22) *
Unfortunately AlfaDiag won't work reliably with a USB interface cable. This is due to non-standard baud rates that are needed to communicate with the ECU. A USB interface uses "emulated" RS232 communications by using a driver to convert USB to RS232 which is where some of the problems lie. You might be able to get a more stable connection if you change some of the FTDI driver settings (trial and error) but it still won't give you the same reliability as a real RS232 interface cable would.

Ideally you would be better off using a proper RS232 interface cable (9-Pin D-plug) but that will also require that your laptop has a real serial (COM) port on it.


I know...but that would require an old laptop. It works fine with my 156, it does disconnects a couple of times but it's way more stable than with the 145, why is that?
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(145-BR @ 3rd February 2009 18:41) *
I know...but that would require an old laptop. It works fine with my 156, it does disconnects a couple of times but it's way more stable than with the 145, why is that?

It may have something to do with the older type of ECU on your 145 which isn't as resiliant as the newer type in your 156.

I've had varying results with USB interface cables and always found the real serial port RS232 ones to be a lot more reliable. Of course, as support for the M2.10.x ECU is a new feature it's also quite possible there are a some bugs in the software with the comms interface to the M2.10.x ECU. It would certainly be worth emailing AlfaDiag and asking if there are any known diconnection issues when connecting to the M2.10.x ECUs and if the software has been tested on those ECUs with a USB interface cable. They may well tell you that you need to configure your FTDI drivers to use some specific config settings.
Cloverleaf76
For what it's worth alfadiag with a usb - 16 pin interface is pretty stable on my 147 although do occasionally have to coax my computer to find the correct com port for the serial emulator to get it to connect in the first place...
expat2000
Hi

Just trying to get into this diagnostic lark and need some advice.

I have a 1998 146 with the early Bosch ECU, i.e. the engine light on the dash is shaped like an injector.

I have got an old laptop with a serial port and an obd to 3 pin adapter and downloaded the kwp71 software so all I think I need is an obd to serial interface. I have found a circuit board specification online but would prefer to buy one if the price is right.

I found this one on ebay

VAG interace lead

Is sonething like this OK as there appear to be loads available for VAG vehicles but not for others. If the interface supports KKL it should work with just the K line on the 146 when the correct software is used? Or am I completely off?

Thanks in advance
Stuart
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(expat2000 @ 13th February 2009 18:26) *
I have got an old laptop with a serial port and an obd to 3 pin adapter and downloaded the kwp71 software so all I think I need is an obd to serial interface. I have found a circuit board specification online but would prefer to buy one if the price is right.

I found this one on ebay

VAG interace lead

Is sonething like this OK as there appear to be loads available for VAG vehicles but not for others. If the interface supports KKL it should work with just the K line on the 146 when the correct software is used? Or am I completely off?

That's exactly what you need. The Alfa uses the same KKL interface as the VAG cars use. It's the CAN BUS leads that are no use.
Curley
This is a long shot, but i need to get the ECU on my 146 1.6 8v Boxer 1995. The Alfa dealers in Dublin have upgraded their systems, therefore cant get the error read.
So is there any way to do this??
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(Curley @ 22nd March 2009 17:32) *
This is a long shot, but i need to get the ECU on my 146 1.6 8v Boxer 1995. The Alfa dealers in Dublin have upgraded their systems, therefore cant get the error read.
So is there any way to do this??

The Boxer 1.6 is fitted with one of the following two ECU's
  • Bosch Motronic MP3.1 ECU (fitted to the early cars)
  • GM Rochester ECU (fitted to the later cars)
If it's the Bosch one then any Bosch automotive specialist should have the necessary equipment to read / clear the ECU fault codes. If you're not sure which ECU your car has then PM me your VIN number and I can tell you.
craig26283
This looks to be quite interesting smile.gif

I have an old laptop (well a duron 1.2, not a 386 or something lol) with serial port and i have a P reg alloy top 145! Meaning i have

Id love to give this a shot...! Meaning i have the M2.10.x (3 or 4) ecu.

I downloaded the programs i have seen mentioned... fiat coupe and kwp71 (and will buy alfadiag, if need be, when i make some progress with the others)

Led to believe i need two other cables. One serial to obdII (is this correct, as i know mines is not obdII) and an obdII to the 3 pin alfa/fiat?

Or can i make this and using what?

Thanks!

Craig (slightly confused)
hairoil
Got it working tonight but it was dark and cold so i cut it short.. (putting the red wire on the + helped a lot!)

the pic is of the two error codes which were on the ecu, i checked some paramaters too and the max rpm exceeded read '7280 rpm' and it wasnt me! rant.gif
What is the graph section used for?
Also i have a question regarding 'W. Lamp' in the pic. what does this refer to? is there only one temperature sensor? (water)
also what is my lambda sensor integrator? (the sensor in the exhaust)
Thanks in advance of all replies.

P.S. I love the alfa145 forum. Big Kiss.

[attachment=13625:errors.jpg]
GialloEvo94
QUOTE(hairoil @ 15th May 2012 22:35) *
What is the graph section used for?
Also i have a question regarding 'W. Lamp' in the pic. what does this refer to? is there only one temperature sensor? (water)
also what is my lambda sensor integrator? (the sensor in the exhaust)

The graph is used for more in-depth diagnosis of sensors where you can plot different values the sensor is giving out over a period of time (see this thread for the sort of graphs produced during lambda sensor diagnosis).

You only have one water temperature sensor on your car (mounted in the top of the thermostat) and the water temperature warning lamp fault means there is an issue with that sensor. Out of interest, are you getting a water temperature reading on the dash gauge? And are you also getting a water temperature reading in FiatECUScan? (tick the box next to the "Engine temperature" setting in the Parameters tab).

The P0170 lambda sensor integrator fault is a problem with the lambda sensor where the ECU is receiving an abnormally low signal from that sensor.
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