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> Cambelt Change (timing), Cant get the timing
Hodges33
post 15th September 2008 13:41
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I apologise for the length of this message but im desperate!!!

The car is a 145 1.6 T spark ('98 on a 'R') phase 1

The situation is... Im doing a cambelt change including variator, aux belt, idler and tensioners. Ive struck a problem. Im at the stage of sorting out the timing. My problem is, ive been following instructions off one of the fellas off here which includes pics and everything, but as i took the cambelt cover off, mine looks different:

1. I think his has air con, mine doesnt
2. I have 1 notch in the right hand side top pulley (thinks its the exhaust one)
3. I dont have any markins on the left hand side top pulley (the one connected to the variator)
he has a mark on both which seem to be at the very top of the rotation

I have rotated the engine so that the crankshaft pulley marks line up and first two cams are pointing to the back of the car.

The notch on the exhaust pulley isnt pointing to anything which indiactes to me that the whole thing isnt in the right place.


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returner
post 15th September 2008 17:42
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it doesn matter what the pullys are doing because you need to undo them anyway, they are keyed onto the cam but still aloow for movement for fine tuning the timing {vernier pullys} the important thing is to get the crank on top dead centre and use the cam locking tools to lock the cams in the correct place, without the locking tools i wouldn even attempt to do the cambelt because your just gonna f**k everything
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GialloEvo94
post 15th September 2008 19:31
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As returner said, cam locking tools are all you need and don't even think about trying to do the job without them. Ignore any markings on the cam pulley wheels, particularly the left hand (inlet) one as this is just on 4 bolts so anyone could have previously taken this off and replaced it 90, 180 or 270 degrees from it's original fitment. If the cam locking blocks fit on then the cams are 100% in the correct position with the crankshaft set at TDC.

You need to loosen the 2 cam pulleys and once the belt is fitted and tensioned, the pulleys will be pulled into their correct positions on the end of the cams. The bolts on those pulleys can then be tightened. I've previously been lucky and found that I've never actually needed to loosen the exhaust cam pulley on mine so you will just need to try without doing it first and see if there is any excess slack in the belt between the exhaust cam pulley and the crank shaft pulley. Whatever you do, do not attempt to undo the exhaust cam pulley bolt with the belts off and just the cam locking blocks fitted. It is done up to a very high torque and you will risk ripping the locking blocks out of the head (and this stripping the cam cap threads). You should do it with the old belts on and the crankshaft locked, or you should take the exhaust cam out completely and do it in a vice (with soft jaws fitted).


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Hodges33
post 15th September 2008 23:10
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Thanks for the replies. Locking tools came today from Totally Alfa. Thanks for the advice. I would be lost otherwise. Im only 19 with not a great deal of mechanic knowledge, so all advice and guidence is more than welcome.

Thanks ppl worshippy.gif

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Campervan
post 16th September 2008 14:08
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In addition to the cam locking tools, it might be worth picking up an M13 Ribe socket for taking out the headbolts. You can usually do them with a t55 (I think) Torx bit but if you get a stubborn one that slips and rips the teeth off the bolt you'll end up stuck. I originally used a torx bit and chewed up the teeth, so (perhaps a bit naively) I decided to cut one side off the head to get it with the chisel - I cracked the bolt casing and that cost me about 225!!! rant.gif

I'm not sure how else you could get one out either if they're stuck. If you cut the bolt head off and removed the washer I don't think there would be enough to grab it with a stud remover for example
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returner
post 16th September 2008 18:16
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QUOTE(amfrazer @ 16th September 2008 15:08) *
If you cut the bolt head off and removed the washer I don't think there would be enough to grab it with a stud remover for example

if you removing the head then you'l have plenty to grip onto, iv always used torx and never had a problem, its just a case of making sure the bit is fully engaged and not sat at an angle, iv never actually damaged a head bolt but if i did id remove the cams and use a pair of stilsons on the bolt head, i wouldnt cut anything because you damage where the washer sits which means you may as well not use a torq wrench when fitting a new bolt because with the extra drag on the surface it wont be anywhere near acurate
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GialloEvo94
post 16th September 2008 20:29
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QUOTE(amfrazer @ 16th September 2008 15:08) *
In addition to the cam locking tools, it might be worth picking up an M13 Ribe socket for taking out the headbolts.

As I understand it, Hodges is simply just doing a belt change in which case he doesn't want to go anywhere near the head bolts at all.


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67duetto
post 17th September 2008 06:39
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QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 15th September 2008 20:31) *
As returner said, cam locking tools are all you need and don't even think about trying to do the job without them. Ignore any markings on the cam pulley wheels, particularly the left hand (inlet) one as this is just on 4 bolts so anyone could have previously taken this off and replaced it 90, 180 or 270 degrees from it's original fitment. If the cam locking blocks fit on then the cams are 100% in the correct position with the crankshaft set at TDC.


I wouldn't want to rely on the crank pulley markings for an accurate TDC. A dial gauge down no 1 pot is the only accurate way.
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GialloEvo94
post 17th September 2008 10:35
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QUOTE(67duetto @ 17th September 2008 07:39) *
I wouldn't want to rely on the crank pulley markings for an accurate TDC. A dial gauge down no 1 pot is the only accurate way.

With a careful eye, you can get away with a socket extension down the spark plug hole (or some other suitable metal rod which is suitable) with a mark put on the side of it and a steel rule laid across the head for a reference...

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Cloverleaf Phil
post 2nd December 2008 19:59
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Carrying on an earlier post, im going to be changing my belts on my cloverleaf soon.
Ive printed out the pages from the manuals. In the overhaul part reassembling the belts the cam pulleys are loose and held by tools. If im not goin to change my variator cam i just lock the cams with the required tools and a dial gauge to replace the belts as nothing is going to be taken off the car.
Has someone done a how to guide as the manual is a bit plain. Someones experience is much more useful,step by step guide
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GialloEvo94
post 2nd December 2008 20:43
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QUOTE(Cloverleaf Phil @ 2nd December 2008 19:59) *
Carrying on an earlier post, im going to be changing my belts on my cloverleaf soon.
Ive printed out the pages from the manuals. In the overhaul part reassembling the belts the cam pulleys are loose and held by tools. If im not goin to change my variator cam i just lock the cams with the required tools and a dial gauge to replace the belts as nothing is going to be taken off the car.
Has someone done a how to guide as the manual is a bit plain. Someones experience is much more useful,step by step guide

Ideally you should loosen both cam pulleys but the exhaust one is done up seriously tightly and in the past I've managed to get away with only having to loosen the inlet cam pulley (4 bolts). You will definately need to loosen at least one of the pulleys as this will then ensure that any slack is taken up between the two cam pulleys when you fit the new belt and set the automatic cambelt tensioner. Also whatever you do, don't be tempted to try and loosen the exhaust cam pulley bolt with the cams just held by the locking blocks. If you do then there is a high chance you will rip the cam locking blocks out and strip the threads whch will leave you with a serious problem to deal with.

There is a written step-by-step guide at the following link. It was written for a 156 but the same engine so exactly the same procedure...

156 2.0 TS Timing Belt Replacement


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Cloverleaf Phil
post 2nd December 2008 23:10
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Am i best to just remove the inlet cam shell covers, then the cam and undo the 4 bolts in a vice (soft jaws) then replace the whole lot, then rotate the inlet cam so i can fit the cam lock tool and go from there?

Your help and advice is appreciated GE and others
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GialloEvo94
post 2nd December 2008 23:49
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QUOTE(Cloverleaf Phil @ 2nd December 2008 23:10) *
Am i best to just remove the inlet cam shell covers, then the cam and undo the 4 bolts in a vice (soft jaws) then replace the whole lot, then rotate the inlet cam so i can fit the cam lock tool and go from there?

The way to do it is to loosen the cam pulley bolts with the old belt still fitted. The belt will be holding the cam pulleys solidly in place and will take the strain of any torque put through the cam pulley bolts. It's actually the exhaust pulley bolt which is the one to be careful with. The inlet pulley bolts shouldn't really be that tight although it's still better not to take any chances and undo any of the pulley bolts with the belts still on. Doing them back up is the exact reverse...just do so after the new belt is fitted and fully tensioned and it will again take the strain of the torque put through any of the cam pulley bolts.


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Cloverleaf Phil
post 3rd December 2008 15:21
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QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 2nd December 2008 23:49) *
The way to do it is to loosen the cam pulley bolts with the old belt still fitted. The belt will be holding the cam pulleys solidly in place and will take the strain of any torque put through the cam pulley bolts. It's actually the exhaust pulley bolt which is the one to be careful with. The inlet pulley bolts shouldn't really be that tight although it's still better not to take any chances and undo any of the pulley bolts with the belts still on. Doing them back up is the exact reverse...just do so after the new belt is fitted and fully tensioned and it will again take the strain of the torque put through any of the cam pulley bolts.


i can see where your coming from about leaving the belt on during releasing and tightning the cam bolts, would i have the cam locks on at the same time as releasing the bolts with the belt on or..........release inlet cam bolts with the belt on and then put the cam lock tools on?

Going to try tackle the alternator on sunday over my friends pit. Not fussed about time as i dont need car at the mo,fun job!
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GialloEvo94
post 3rd December 2008 17:46
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QUOTE(Cloverleaf Phil @ 3rd December 2008 15:21) *
i can see where your coming from about leaving the belt on during releasing and tightning the cam bolts, would i have the cam locks on at the same time as releasing the bolts with the belt on or..........release inlet cam bolts with the belt on and then put the cam lock tools on?

Put the cam locks on before loosening the pulley bolts. The reason being is that once the pulleys are loose the valve springs will push the cams round and you will find it difficult (if not impossible) to rotate them back to the correct cam lock positions again with loose pulleys wink.gif


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