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145man
post 16th April 2018 18:05
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Hi All
Following the restoration the car is alll back together now.
Tried starting it yesterday with no joy, fuel not getting to fuel rail. Taken the fuel line off the fuel pump and no fuel being pumped!!
Fuel tank was completely empty so put in 5 litres of super unleaded, I thought that should be enough to get it started but maybe it needs more.
Had to change the pump for a second hand unit as I broke the one that was in the car - maybe itís a dud. Or is it a relay in the BBOB.
Any other thoughts?
Any input gratefully received

Carl
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Desperado
post 16th April 2018 19:21
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QUOTE(145man @ 16th April 2018 19:05) *
Hi All
Following the restoration the car is alll back together now.
Tried starting it yesterday with no joy, fuel not getting to fuel rail. Taken the fuel line off the fuel pump and no fuel being pumped!!
Fuel tank was completely empty so put in 5 litres of super unleaded, I thought that should be enough to get it started but maybe it needs more.
Had to change the pump for a second hand unit as I broke the one that was in the car - maybe itís a dud. Or is it a relay in the BBOB.
Any other thoughts?
Any input gratefully received

Carl


Assuming its fuel...squirt some easy start into the intake, it should try to go.....

CF1 or 2?

If CF1 [which is my experience] Check that the inertia switch under the passenger seat hasnt popped. If its not that, then test for 12v on the black/purple cable on the fuel pump connector, you may need to crank the engine, I dont think the CF1's allow fuel pressure without engine turning.

Have you got a 12v test prod? use that to power the pump independantly, the pumps are very quiet when running.

If the pump runs on independant 12v then go to the FP relay....

Are te relays in their original positions, I'll post some more details soon...I have it all written down as Ive done this recently!!



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145man
post 16th April 2018 20:00
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Thanks for the reply, mine is a cf2, the relays have by a previous owner been rewired although the relays have beeen numbered I canít be sure what they correspond to. The fuel cut of is fine I have checked, I will check the connections although I only have a basic 12v testing screwdriver.
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Desperado
post 16th April 2018 20:31
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QUOTE(145man @ 16th April 2018 21:00) *
Thanks for the reply, mine is a cf2, the relays have by a previous owner been rewired although the relays have beeen numbered I can’t be sure what they correspond to. The fuel cut of is fine I have checked, I will check the connections although I only have a basic 12v testing screwdriver.

Download this although I think this is for the CF1

http://www.alfa145.com/upload/Alfa145Manua...0M2.10.3%20.PDF

The CF2 one for the later motronic ecu is also there, all the BBoB details are in there. You can Identify the FP relay from the wire colours if you're not sure. The advice I got from here was to not only check the connectors on the relay and the base but make sure the corrosion isnt creeping down the cables.

I removed the pump and its cage from the tank its a bit of a squeeze but it will come out, then I made up two cables with spade receptacles on the end and put 12v across it away from the tank. It runs very quietly.

Search BBoB too, GialloEvo did a very good write up for the CF2, his advice is worth its weight etc....

This post has been edited by Desperado: 16th April 2018 20:34


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145man
post 16th April 2018 21:10
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Thanks for the advice, I will give it a try this weekend and let you how I get on
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dante giacosa
post 17th April 2018 08:43
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I've got a picture of this relay with colours shown on the cables- I'll try and dig it out
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dante giacosa
post 17th April 2018 09:14
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hey 145man, I've got it.

You and I are both rocking CF2's, so this is what you should have for the fuel pump relay (S12a)


Orange & brown/white are the coil to energise the relay (you should see voltage on them)

Red is the feed (+)

Green is the output (+) to the fuel pump itself.


So you should be able to see a voltage between the outgoing green, and a bolt on the top of the suspension turret, or maybe just the battery negative terminal.
The negative (-) at the fuel pump is derived from the inertial switch, so if that is in, you should have both (+) & (-) at the pump.

Here is mine, during the refurb last summer.


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145man
post 17th April 2018 18:20
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Hi Dante
Thatís a great help, my relays have been completely retired at some point with the wires put into female terminals then just attached to the red relay. With your picture I now know the correct relay
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145man
post 17th April 2018 18:47
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The pump appears to energise because I can hear it when I turn the ignition key, when you disconnect the cable obviously it is silent, Iím now wondering if the pump itself is blocked. I get a voltage when I touch the feed into the relay with my circuit tester, but nothing when itís touching the green wire - should I invest in a proper volt metre, I donít normally try to get too involved with vehicle electrics, I can just about cope with my Alfasud!!
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dante giacosa
post 17th April 2018 21:16
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thats funny about the Alfasud

You know, you could get along way back to originality, with all the bits off this;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alfa-Romeo-145-1...xEAAOxyaFtR5rV6

So, you can see the (+) input but not the output, at the relay? Well, given that you can hear that the pump is turning over, I would say that was just a measurement error- the voltage must be there.

This is starting (from what you've said) to sound like the fuel pump is blocked. If the car has been standing for a period of time with just the dregs of a tank, perhaps it's possible.
I think you are going to have to retrieve it from the tank for inspection.
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145man
post 21st April 2018 17:30
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Hi All
Thanks for all the advice, dropped the petrol tank today and properly bench tested the fuel pump, all working fine.
Popped it back in the tank filling with fuel as it went back in, put another 5 litres of fuel in and hey presto started on the second turn of the key! Must have been the fuel level due to the slope on my drive.
Totally delighted with the finished car, everything works even the air con after trials a tribulations of repairing the evaporator pipe.
Look forward to a proper test drive once itís motd. Happy days!!!!!
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JeremyG
post 21st April 2018 18:07
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QUOTE(145man @ 21st April 2018 18:30) *
Hi All
Thanks for all the advice, dropped the petrol tank today and properly bench tested the fuel pump, all working fine.
Popped it back in the tank filling with fuel as it went back in, put another 5 litres of fuel in and hey presto started on the second turn of the key! Must have been the fuel level due to the slope on my drive.
Totally delighted with the finished car, everything works even the air con after trials a tribulations of repairing the evaporator pipe.
Look forward to a proper test drive once itís motd. Happy days!!!!!


Great news - congrats on completing your refurb!

I've got fuel flow issues too - can you tell me how far you had to dis-assemble your tank to remove the pump unit?

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145man
post 21st April 2018 18:26
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QUOTE(JeremyG @ 21st April 2018 19:07) *
Great news - congrats on completing your refurb!

I've got fuel flow issues too - can you tell me how far you had to dis-assemble your tank to remove the pump unit?


I dropped the exhaust, (didnít need to be disconnected) put a jack under the centre of the tank to support it. Remove the black cover in the boot, remove the fuel pipe and the electrical contections. Then undo the three bolts (one at the front and two at the rear) on the fuel tank.
Pry bar the lugs the gently lower slightly using the jack, remove the off side road wheel and disconnect the fuel vapour hose and the black rigid hose that goes from the fuel pump to the front of the tank. Unbolt the fuel filler spout and pull it out of its hole. This comes away with the tank.
Lower the fuel tank all the way down on the jack, then it can be pulled from under the car, try to make sure there is litttle or no fuel left in the tank other wise it can be really heavy!
Hope this helps, I donít think Iíve forgotten anything.
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JeremyG
post 21st April 2018 22:42
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QUOTE(145man @ 21st April 2018 19:26) *
I dropped the exhaust, (didnít need to be disconnected) put a jack under the centre of the tank to support it. Remove the black cover in the boot, remove the fuel pipe and the electrical contections. Then undo the three bolts (one at the front and two at the rear) on the fuel tank.
Pry bar the lugs the gently lower slightly using the jack, remove the off side road wheel and disconnect the fuel vapour hose and the black rigid hose that goes from the fuel pump to the front of the tank. Unbolt the fuel filler spout and pull it out of its hole. This comes away with the tank.
Lower the fuel tank all the way down on the jack, then it can be pulled from under the car, try to make sure there is litttle or no fuel left in the tank other wise it can be really heavy!
Hope this helps, I donít think Iíve forgotten anything.


Thanks for the info!

Do you think it's possible to drop the tank enough to remove the pump without completely removing the tank from the car?
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145man
post 22nd April 2018 06:53
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QUOTE(JeremyG @ 21st April 2018 23:42) *
Thanks for the info!

Do you think it's possible to drop the tank enough to remove the pump without completely removing the tank from the car?


I think it can be done, Iím sure Iíve read it somewhere IIRC you need to gain an inch or so to give enough room to wriggle it free. It is a very tight fit though.
Best of luck
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JeremyG
post 22nd April 2018 13:31
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QUOTE(145man @ 22nd April 2018 07:53) *
I think it can be done, Iím sure Iíve read it somewhere IIRC you need to gain an inch or so to give enough room to wriggle it free. It is a very tight fit though.
Best of luck


Turns out you can JUST get the pump out of the car without dropping the tank.

All connectors have to be removed (2x electric, 3x fuel hoses/breathers) and the retaining ring - then it will just squeeze out. Hopefully it will also squeeze back in... (my pump is seized, so I'm awaiting a replacement).
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