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Alfa Romeo 145 - 146 Forum _ Twin Spark Engine Only Oily Stuff _ 2.0ltr Cams In My 1.6 Head

Posted by: stevepx 20th September 2012 17:37

So the head was well and truely shot, gasket failure and severely pitted head. So on went the 2.0 (1.8) ltr head I've had sitting around...it deffo not running 100% but already I can feel a bit more urgency from the engine and sounds very different too. I guess I need a remap to get it running spot on so can anyone offer garages in Hampshire (southampton) who can do the work.....oh bottom end was fine, no damage which was a result...

Posted by: Duncan 20th September 2012 18:11

You using the 2.0ltr inlet manifold as well?? Exhaust ports any different and if so are you using 2.0ltr exhaust manifold as well??

As for remap, maybe try these guys: http://www.reddotracing.co.uk/rollingroad/default.asp

They've got Alfa/Fiat experience so might be worth a try??

My 145 Turbo is getting mapped by http://www.fcperformance.co.uk/ when it's done, not sure if they deal with the Bosch ECUs on Alfas but they've got a very good reputation in Fiat Coupe land.


Posted by: Smallville 20th September 2012 18:58

I have sent FCPerformance an email about remapping the GTA so I can keep you updated on that smile.gif

Posted by: langers 20th September 2012 19:06

The ECU's as you know on the Coupe are EPROM...as are the early 145's. So the mapping factor will be the same.

Posted by: NaanBread 20th September 2012 19:12

kirk is the man to speak to about putting a 2ltr head on 1.6 I think?

Posted by: black 146 20th September 2012 19:19

when i did mine i put a 2ltr maff in. it helped a lot
i think a remap will help as making it run a lot better on petrol and that's all blush.gif no3.gif

Posted by: stevepx 21st September 2012 23:18

Its seems to have settled down a bit having driven the thing for a few miles, still not right so remap i think is the way to go. Having chatted with the mechanic who fitted the head, said it's not from a 2 ltr, probably a 1.8.......it's essential the same head, same cam but doesn't have the trick inlet "best of both worlds" he said...I'm sure I was told it came from a 2 ltr...anyway used all teh stuff currently on my car including the exhaust manifolds...had the throttle body and inlet already attached which my mechanic used....found a couple ofplases in southampton, none specialise in alfa's to do the remap, 250 seems to be the going rate...but at least i got my car back!!

Posted by: Cloverleaf76 22nd September 2012 07:59

Hate to say it but wouldn't it be cheaper / easier just to get the right head?! unsure.gif It's also much more likely to work properly.

Have your tried AHM ? Adie specialises in alfas but suspect it may cost more than the right head would. From memory he's based a little way up the M3.

Posted by: kirk46 22nd September 2012 08:40

QUOTE(NaanBread @ 20th September 2012 20:12) *
kirk is the man to speak to about putting a 2ltr head on 1.6 I think?



nope.... i just have 2.0L cams biggrin.gif

Posted by: NaanBread 22nd September 2012 12:55

I couldn't remember if you bought the lot or not ha

Posted by: hairoil 22nd September 2012 14:23

QUOTE(NaanBread @ 22nd September 2012 13:55) *
I couldn't remember if you bought the lot or not ha


Is there any info on the camshaft swap i.e 1.6 engine with 2.0 camshafts? Sounds interesting.

Posted by: kirk46 22nd September 2012 18:35

QUOTE(hairoil @ 22nd September 2012 15:23) *
Is there any info on the camshaft swap i.e 1.6 engine with 2.0 camshafts? Sounds interesting.



yes i have 2.0L cams in my 1.6L

it was done a while ago now.... pick up seemed better but you will need a remap to get the full benefit

Posted by: stevepx 25th September 2012 13:30

so discovered part of the poor running issue, the exhaust wasn't sealed properly at the front pipe, no wonder it was sounding bad...as it heated up it would gradually seal itself but when cold it was blowing..now sorted that little gem out things sem to be a bit better.. noticed it still sounds harder edged which i like and pickup over about 3500-4000 rpm has improved a lot, remap still needed to make the most of it... KIRK46 did you find yours was a little flat high in the rev range in 3rd/4th, suspect too much air and not enough fuel which again would be sorted by a remap..there are a few places round here that do chip replacement but need a rolling road to sort the set up...like it though...

Posted by: black 146 25th September 2012 14:16

QUOTE(stevepx @ 25th September 2012 14:30) *
so discovered part of the poor running issue, the exhaust wasn't sealed properly at the front pipe, no wonder it was sounding bad...as it heated up it would gradually seal itself but when cold it was blowing..now sorted that little gem out things sem to be a bit better.. noticed it still sounds harder edged which i like and pickup over about 3500-4000 rpm has improved a lot, remap still needed to make the most of it... KIRK46 did you find yours was a little flat high in the rev range in 3rd/4th, suspect too much air and not enough fuel which again would be sorted by a remap..there are a few places round here that do chip replacement but need a rolling road to sort the set up...like it though...




what injectors are you using + manifold ?

Posted by: stevepx 25th September 2012 19:04

QUOTE(black 146 @ 25th September 2012 15:16) *
what injectors are you using + manifold ?



Hey Black 146 hows things?

I think it's using the standard injectors that come with the 1.8 (discovered it was a 1.8) and inlet manifold too, using my existing exhaust manifold from the 1.6 system. With my 1.6 it would race for the redline in 3rd and for the best part in 4th but seems to get to about 5500 - 6000 rpm and starts choking, probably would get to 7000 rpm but feel it would take an eternity...also running K&N cone so I imagine too much air in the mixture ..

Posted by: black 146 25th September 2012 19:35

QUOTE(stevepx @ 25th September 2012 20:04) *
Hey Black 146 hows things?

I think it's using the standard injectors that come with the 1.8 (discovered it was a 1.8) and inlet manifold too, using my existing exhaust manifold from the 1.6 system. With my 1.6 it would race for the redline in 3rd and for the best part in 4th but seems to get to about 5500 - 6000 rpm and starts choking, probably would get to 7000 rpm but feel it would take an eternity...also running K&N cone so I imagine too much air in the mixture ..



still ruining her IN witch is really hard as she is so fast on pull away and a over heating problem as it comes with a new head gasket joby
when i put my 2ltr head on i did have a maff problem so i put a 2ltr one on and she did run a lot better but i don't if that's down to it being new or a 2ltr ?

Posted by: langers 26th September 2012 12:22

I would have thought that the MAF's are fitted with different resistors to cope with the amount of air flow passing over the wire.

Posted by: stevepx 26th September 2012 18:43

So worth changing the MAF then which may help with the running?

Posted by: black 146 26th September 2012 19:12

QUOTE(stevepx @ 26th September 2012 19:43) *
So worth changing the MAF then which may help with the running?




see if you can pick one on here cheap whistle.gif
then if it works treat her to a new one and bit more of your hard earned cash
witch i call my alfa fund w00t2.gif

Posted by: stevepx 27th September 2012 13:46

I'm no expert but isn't the MAF just there to monitor the air flow, tell the ECU what is happening and the ECU then modifies the fuel mixture.. Would it really make any difference as so far the MAF's i've looked at are for 1.6, 1.8 or 2.0.. There is nothing wrong with my MAF its relatively new. Just a thought really..

Posted by: gbzone 27th September 2012 15:18

Relatively new MAF, but is it a Bosch or one of the cheap aftermarket ones? btw - anyone wants a cheap aftermarket one I have one they can have for the postage, used it a week and the symptoms seem very close to what your describing unsure.gif

Posted by: stevepx 27th September 2012 15:33

mine is the genuine item....

Posted by: GialloEvo94 27th September 2012 16:01

QUOTE(stevepx @ 27th September 2012 14:46) *
I'm no expert but isn't the MAF just there to monitor the air flow, tell the ECU what is happening and the ECU then modifies the fuel mixture.. Would it really make any difference as so far the MAF's i've looked at are for 1.6, 1.8 or 2.0.. There is nothing wrong with my MAF its relatively new. Just a thought really..

The 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 plastic top engines all use the same MAF (Bosch part number 0280218019). What happens if you drive with it unplugged?

Posted by: black 146 27th September 2012 16:19

QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 27th September 2012 17:01) *
The 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 plastic top engines all use the same MAF (Bosch part number 0280218019). What happens if you drive with it unplugged?




maybe i just needed a new maff then ?. but i never had a problem with mine just seemed to a lot on fuel so as you say. it needs a remap
but when i took mine to rally tech he told me it will run a bit better but not that much faster so he did not get my money blush.gif no3.gif
i think he had some think better to do on a satday

Posted by: stevepx 27th September 2012 18:17

QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 27th September 2012 17:01) *
The 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 plastic top engines all use the same MAF (Bosch part number 0280218019). What happens if you drive with it unplugged?


Haven't tried it with out the MAF to be honest I just figured the ECU is programed a certain way but with the longer duration cams etc it might need a little help fueling.

I'll unplug it and see....

Posted by: The Wombat 27th September 2012 19:22

QUOTE(stevepx @ 27th September 2012 14:46) *
I'm no expert but isn't the MAF just there to monitor the air flow, tell the ECU what is happening and the ECU then modifies the fuel mixture.. Would it really make any difference as so far the MAF's i've looked at are for 1.6, 1.8 or 2.0.. There is nothing wrong with my MAF its relatively new. Just a thought really..

Do you know if the 1.6, 1.8, and 2.0 MAFs are the same part number (could look on EPER but not enough time). If they are, they pretty much guaranteed the 1.6 MAF would be fine. If they are different art numbers, there will be a reason, possible the diameter, possible the signal range from the MAF.

The other thing to consider with the MAF is the ECU itself. Fuel maps for the different size engines are probably quite similar, but it is possible that at the limits, they are somewhat different. For example, the 2.5 12v V6 ECU runs my 3.0 24v engine fine with some adjustments to the barn door AFM, but the ECU has a 6500rpm red line, and the map leans out at the upper end of the rev range because for the air volume that the 12v needs at higher rpm, the 24v needs to add more fuel.

Not sure if that addresses the exact problem, but hope its useful.

Posted by: stevepx 28th September 2012 08:52

QUOTE(The Wombat @ 27th September 2012 20:22) *
Do you know if the 1.6, 1.8, and 2.0 MAFs are the same part number (could look on EPER but not enough time). If they are, they pretty much guaranteed the 1.6 MAF would be fine. If they are different art numbers, there will be a reason, possible the diameter, possible the signal range from the MAF.

The other thing to consider with the MAF is the ECU itself. Fuel maps for the different size engines are probably quite similar, but it is possible that at the limits, they are somewhat different. For example, the 2.5 12v V6 ECU runs my 3.0 24v engine fine with some adjustments to the barn door AFM, but the ECU has a 6500rpm red line, and the map leans out at the upper end of the rev range because for the air volume that the 12v needs at higher rpm, the 24v needs to add more fuel.

Not sure if that addresses the exact problem, but hope its useful.



Yeah as per GE post, the part numbers are the same so MAF not an issue..

I think a remap is the only total solution, it's running at about 90% of what I think it's capable of and as said feels a little sluggish high in the rev range. Thanks for the information though it kinda confirms what I thought.... smile.gif

Posted by: stevepx 3rd October 2012 17:54

Head Gasket failure today.....less than 200 miles since all the head work was completed, no warning what so ever pulled up at traffic lights and with in seconds temp guage was on 130! Pulled over immediately and turned it off. Car is back with my mechanic who is shocked and annoyed to say the least. Head to be stripped down to find out why it has failed. This is the last straw with my 146.... Feel like just weighing it in and finding something else....well unhappy at the moment...

Posted by: black 146 3rd October 2012 19:04

QUOTE(stevepx @ 3rd October 2012 18:54) *
Head Gasket failure today.....less than 200 miles since all the head work was completed, no warning what so ever pulled up at traffic lights and with in seconds temp guage was on 130! Pulled over immediately and turned it off. Car is back with my mechanic who is shocked and annoyed to say the least. Head to be stripped down to find out why it has failed. This is the last straw with my 146.... Feel like just weighing it in and finding something else....well unhappy at the moment...




join the the club m8
i felt like you are now. but once i got her up and run with help from a really GOOD m8 on here i started to smile once i put my foot down
is the guy who done the joby going to help out at all ?

Posted by: Fin 3rd October 2012 22:26

QUOTE(stevepx @ 3rd October 2012 18:54) *
Head Gasket failure today.....less than 200 miles since all the head work was completed, no warning what so ever pulled up at traffic lights and with in seconds temp guage was on 130! Pulled over immediately and turned it off.

Oh s**t... sad.gif
QUOTE(stevepx @ 3rd October 2012 18:54) *
Car is back with my mechanic who is shocked and annoyed to say the least. Head to be stripped down to find out why it has failed. This is the last straw with my 146.... Feel like just weighing it in and finding something else....well unhappy at the moment...

Did you have the replacement head skimmed, pressure tested and/or welded? Head gasket failure is fairly rare on these engines, but if the surface of the head is warped or damaged in any way and not repaired properly, the gasket will fail...

Posted by: black 146 3rd October 2012 22:30

QUOTE(Fin @ 3rd October 2012 23:26) *
Oh s**t... sad.gif

Did you have the replacement head skimmed, pressure tested and/or welded? Head gasket failure is fairly rare on these engines, but if the surface of the head is warped or damaged in any way and not repaired properly, the gasket will fail...



i had a over heating problem when mine wen't angry.gif

Posted by: stevepx 4th October 2012 01:50

The head was skimmed and had a small weld done so assume it was all done correctly, won't know much until the head is removed. Not sure what my mechanic is gonna do, if its his fault then I guess there won't be a further bill, if the weld has failed then I guess he will bill the engineering company.... Just have to see what he finds out but it makes me feel like I can't rely on the car any more I guess all I seem to do is shell out on this car at the moment......

Posted by: stevepx 7th October 2012 10:07

Update....head removed and gasket well and truly blown!!!

We couldn't understand what was going on but seemed localised to cylinder 3...

Using some engineers blue on the head and mated it with the block to find some high (or low) points around number 3 cylinder!!!!! was not in contact with the block.........really really strange!! for piece of mind tried another JTS head and it mated flat and square with the block so we know there is nothing amiss with the block so some how the head is not true...... now my mechanic, who is an alfa specialist, said he has never seen anything like this.. can only summise that when the head was skimmed some how the engineering company have taken too much off the head around cylinder 3 to make it uneven...is that at all possible?? so head is back to engineers to be measured and checked and hopefully sorted out...what a complete PITA................. no.gif

Posted by: Fin 7th October 2012 19:31

That's a bit odd. It depends on what machine they used, but usually you would use a vertical milling machine. The head would be bolted on to a bed and then would be moved around while the milling head takes off a fine layer, which as long as the head didn't move on the bed, would be totally flat and true. Maybe the operator didn't clamp it properly...

Posted by: black 146 7th October 2012 21:24

QUOTE(Fin @ 7th October 2012 20:31) *
That's a bit odd. It depends on what machine they used, but usually you would use a vertical milling machine. The head would be bolted on to a bed and then would be moved around while the milling head takes off a fine layer, which as long as the head didn't move on the bed, would be totally flat and true. Maybe the operator didn't clamp it properly...




that's what i thought there was no way that they would go deeper on just part of the head as fin said. it's all bolted down
and do you think it may have bin torqued down in the wrong way and it happened when it got to hot ?. not saying the guy dose not no what he's doing but got a train'y on it?

Posted by: stevepx 8th October 2012 12:09

No idea fella's, could have jumped out of the jig when it was being skimmed or just locked in on a wonky angle or something, my mechanic again could have made an error but he said it simple wasn't flush with the block so even if he did make an error it wouldn't have cause the whole head to twist.. who knows, just gotta wait for the phone call to say what is happening......

Posted by: stevepx 15th October 2012 12:43

So the saga continues!!

Have got my '46 back, its now running the original 1600 head which has been welded to make good but I now have the 1800/2000 cams in place (like Kirk) but ANOTHER problem seems to have manifested itself.. Only got it Saturday but there seems to be pretty much no hot air coming in through the heater vents, just a little warm so I drained down the coolant system and refilled it to make sure there wasn't any air trapped and still no good I changed the valve a few months ago so I know it's good..I also noticed that taking the cap off the header tank didn't result in the water bubbling all over the place leading me to believe that the water pump is now FUBAR..would I be correct with my assumption and how damaging is it to drive in this state?? GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Cloverleaf76 15th October 2012 13:39

QUOTE(stevepx @ 15th October 2012 13:43) *
So the saga continues!!

Have got my '46 back, its now running the original 1600 head which has been welded to make good but I now have the 1800/2000 cams in place (like Kirk) but ANOTHER problem seems to have manifested itself.. Only got it Saturday but there seems to be pretty much no hot air coming in through the heater vents, just a little warm so I drained down the coolant system and refilled it to make sure there wasn't any air trapped and still no good I changed the valve a few months ago so I know it's good..I also noticed that taking the cap off the header tank didn't result in the water bubbling all over the place leading me to believe that the water pump is now FUBAR..would I be correct with my assumption and how damaging is it to drive in this state?? GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!


What temp shows on the gauge?

Posted by: Fin 15th October 2012 14:00

QUOTE(stevepx @ 15th October 2012 13:43) *
So the saga continues!!

Have got my '46 back, its now running the original 1600 head which has been welded to make good

Mildly worrying! This is what I did with mine originally, it did actually last for 50k miles but let go when I raced a Porsche!

QUOTE(stevepx @ 15th October 2012 13:43) *
ANOTHER problem seems to have manifested itself.. Only got it Saturday but there seems to be pretty much no hot air coming in through the heater vents, just a little warm
so I drained down the coolant system and refilled it to make sure there wasn't any air trapped and still no good I changed the valve a few months ago so I know it's good..I also noticed that taking the cap off the header tank didn't result in the water bubbling all over the place leading me to believe that the water pump is now FUBAR..would I be correct with my assumption and how damaging is it to drive in this state?? GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!


If you disconnect the little pipe that goes into the header tank, you should get a bit of water flowing when you rev the engine. Re-fitting a water pump that could be suspect or has been subjected to overheating is a pretty stupid idea. Perhaps you should change your mechanic. If the cooling system is operating properly, it should be pressurised once it is at the correct operating temperature. If yours isn't pressurising then you have a leak somewhere, so check round all the pipes while the engine is hot.

As for the heater temperature and all that, what does the temp gauge on the dash do? Does the car get up to temp and stay there? Does it fluctuate depending on how fast or slow you drive?

I'd be inclined to look at/change the thermostat if you haven't done that already. Let me know how you get on!

Posted by: stevepx 16th October 2012 12:30

Ok, so the temp gauge is actually pretty good, gets to around 90 and sticks there, as soon as it starts going up the fan cuts in and with in about 15 seconds its back to 90 again. Just took the top hose off Fin as suggested and there is a flow of coolant, so I guess the pump is OK. Just very nervous about it at the moment following the double failure....I'll keep my eye on it and report back if anything else is a miss. The air temp from the heater is getting ever so slightly warmer, its definatley not as hot as before but maybe it will improve with time, it better with winter just around the corner. As for the engine performance with the new CAMS in place, yeah not has good as with the 1800 head but i certainly can feel a difference...wants to be rev'ed though as pretty gutless under 2500 rpm...... Thanks again guys

Posted by: black 146 16th October 2012 12:50

QUOTE(stevepx @ 16th October 2012 13:30) *
Ok, so the temp gauge is actually pretty good, gets to around 90 and sticks there, as soon as it starts going up the fan cuts in and with in about 15 seconds its back to 90 again. Just took the top hose off Fin as suggested and there is a flow of coolant, so I guess the pump is OK. Just very nervous about it at the moment following the double failure....I'll keep my eye on it and report back if anything else is a miss. The air temp from the heater is getting ever so slightly warmer, its definatley not as hot as before but maybe it will improve with time, it better with winter just around the corner. As for the engine performance with the new CAMS in place, yeah not has good as with the 1800 head but i certainly can feel a difference...wants to be rev'ed though as pretty gutless under 2500 rpm...... Thanks again guys





did you try to keep pumping the the bottom hose to see if that was getting as the top one is
do you know how much anti freeze went in

Posted by: stevepx 17th October 2012 15:07

Right, taken advice from Fin....new Thermostat ordered from Shop4Parts..heater still not getting very warm..slightly concernd also that the temp is quite regularly going above 90 on a run, not hammering, constant 80mph and every 5 mins the needle started edging up....

Posted by: black 146 17th October 2012 16:41

QUOTE(stevepx @ 17th October 2012 16:07) *
Right, taken advice from Fin....new Thermostat ordered from Shop4Parts..heater still not getting very warm..slightly concernd also that the temp is quite regularly going above 90 on a run, not hammering, constant 80mph and every 5 mins the needle started edging up....





is the top hose from the rad as hot as the bottom one as i said i had the same problem getting up to speed whistle.gif

Posted by: stevepx 18th October 2012 10:26

QUOTE(black 146 @ 17th October 2012 17:41) *
is the top hose from the rad as hot as the bottom one as i said i had the same problem getting up to speed whistle.gif


Sorry Black146, no it's not, it's getting quite hot but not near as hot as the top hose.............suspect thermostat???

Posted by: black 146 18th October 2012 16:14

QUOTE(stevepx @ 18th October 2012 11:26) *
Sorry Black146, no it's not, it's getting quite hot but not near as hot as the top hose.............suspect thermostat???






i thought that !. but i put two in from car with out a problem
that's why it went down to clearing that small air lock out

Posted by: Smallville 18th October 2012 16:22

QUOTE(stevepx @ 15th October 2012 13:43) *
So the saga continues!!

Have got my '46 back, its now running the original 1600 head which has been welded to make good but I now have the 1800/2000 cams in place (like Kirk) but ANOTHER problem seems to have manifested itself.. Only got it Saturday but there seems to be pretty much no hot air coming in through the heater vents, just a little warm so I drained down the coolant system and refilled it to make sure there wasn't any air trapped and still no good I changed the valve a few months ago so I know it's good..I also noticed that taking the cap off the header tank didn't result in the water bubbling all over the place leading me to believe that the water pump is now FUBAR..would I be correct with my assumption and how damaging is it to drive in this state?? GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!


Sounds like a problem with your thermostat, as my QV wouldn't blow hot air out so changed the stat and sorted smile.gif

Posted by: stevepx 18th October 2012 17:52

Ok, well New stat on its way, will be really careful to make sure I get any and all air out of the system...
Hopefully this will be the last thing I need to do for a while....thanks guys for all your input and suggestions...

Posted by: Fin 19th October 2012 02:06

QUOTE(stevepx @ 18th October 2012 18:52) *
Ok, well New stat on its way, will be really careful to make sure I get any and all air out of the system...
Hopefully this will be the last thing I need to do for a while....thanks guys for all your input and suggestions...

I'm really hoping it is the thermostat, usually a nice easy 3 part to change, sadly a bit more expensive on these engines! Seeing as it is a weak point, a stupid two-stage affair and your particular one has been subjected to overheating, a replacement should hopefully sort it all out!

As for air in of the system, get the header tank to the correct level, run the engine until it gets hot then top it up. You shouldn't really have to bleed it anywhere although on some radiators there is a bleed screw on the side near the tank.

Posted by: stevepx 23rd October 2012 17:09

f**king thing did it again!!! Changed the thermostat for a brand new item, careful to fill the system up with coolant and let it all run up to temperature, everything seemed fine, even getting more hot air through the vents, and today on the M25 of all places having driven steady for 80 miles the temp gauge went from 90 to 130 in about 10 seconds.....I pulled over immediately and called the AA...after getting home found that the water level has only gone down a little and can see any signs of water in the engine (although that might appear later) started it up, it's a bit lumpy but nothing too bad...I'm going to run it up tomorrow and leave it ticking over for an hour or so to see if anything happens....I'm at a loss, the head is fine, the block is fine, new thermostat.....what else is there!!!!??? sad.gif sad.gif

Posted by: black 146 23rd October 2012 17:35

QUOTE(stevepx @ 23rd October 2012 18:09) *
f**king thing did it again!!! Changed the thermostat for a brand new item, careful to fill the system up with coolant and let it all run up to temperature, everything seemed fine, even getting more hot air through the vents, and today on the M25 of all places having driven steady for 80 miles the temp gauge went from 90 to 130 in about 10 seconds.....I pulled over immediately and called the AA...after getting home found that the water level has only gone down a little and can see any signs of water in the engine (although that might appear later) started it up, it's a bit lumpy but nothing too bad...I'm going to run it up tomorrow and leave it ticking over for an hour or so to see if anything happens....I'm at a loss, the head is fine, the block is fine, new thermostat.....what else is there!!!!??? sad.gif sad.gif





i know i keep going on but what's the temp on the hoses and how are you bleeding it
have you clear the rad out ? or i would to to stick a rad flush in i done some cars where i run it till hot then leave it over night then get it to temp before you empty it

Posted by: stevepx 23rd October 2012 18:19

QUOTE(black 146 @ 23rd October 2012 18:35) *
i know i keep going on but what's the temp on the hoses and how are you bleeding it
have you clear the rad out ? or i would to to stick a rad flush in i done some cars where i run it till hot then leave it over night then get it to temp before you empty it



Bottom hose came up to temp..
Not sure what you mean about bleeding it, there are no bleed points in the coolant system so filling it with coolant, running the temp up until the stat opens with the heater turned on hot...then topping it off..

not tried rad flush, i'll get some tomorrow,

Could be a block in a hose that moves and then blocks again, thats all i can think off..

Posted by: Cloverleaf76 23rd October 2012 18:59

QUOTE(stevepx @ 23rd October 2012 18:09) *
f**king thing did it again!!! Changed the thermostat for a brand new item, careful to fill the system up with coolant and let it all run up to temperature, everything seemed fine, even getting more hot air through the vents, and today on the M25 of all places having driven steady for 80 miles the temp gauge went from 90 to 130 in about 10 seconds.....I pulled over immediately and called the AA...after getting home found that the water level has only gone down a little and can see any signs of water in the engine (although that might appear later) started it up, it's a bit lumpy but nothing too bad...I'm going to run it up tomorrow and leave it ticking over for an hour or so to see if anything happens....I'm at a loss, the head is fine, the block is fine, new thermostat.....what else is there!!!!??? sad.gif sad.gif


If it had water in it, the temp was not 130.

My guess is that if it happened v quickly, ie just suddenly went from 90 to 130 it is a misreading. All my gauges went wacky for a while and it turned out to be the earth in the engine bay nearest the horn / aircon compressor etc.

Do you have access to alfadiag / fes etc? You could check the true reading versus what's displayed and try messing about with that earth (which is incidentally fragile: 20 plus .5mm cables onto one connector = failures).

Did the expansion cap even blow? Assuming that works, and it really is quite unlikely to break, it should blow at 1.4 bar. One of the engineers on here unsure.gif will do the maths and tell you what indicated temp that should happen at with a standard antifreeze mix, but it is certainly well below 130.



Posted by: black 146 23rd October 2012 19:00

QUOTE(stevepx @ 23rd October 2012 19:19) *
Bottom hose came up to temp..
Not sure what you mean about bleeding it, there are no bleed points in the coolant system so filling it with coolant, running the temp up until the stat opens with the heater turned on hot...then topping it off..

not tried rad flush, i'll get some tomorrow,

Could be a block in a hose that moves and then blocks again, thats all i can think off..




i was thinking in the rad maybe ?
do you take the cap off the header tank when the fan kicks in ? and on the newer rad's have a bleed screw on the o/s

Posted by: Cloverleaf76 23rd October 2012 19:32

QUOTE(Cloverleaf76 @ 23rd October 2012 19:59) *
If it had water in it, the temp was not 130.

Did the expansion cap even blow? Assuming that works, and it really is quite unlikely to break, it should blow at 1.4 bar. One of the engineers on here unsure.gif will do the maths and tell you what indicated temp that should happen at with a standard antifreeze mix, but it is certainly well below 130.


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/saturated-steam-properties-d_457.html says that at 1.4 bar water boils at 109.32 celsius.

For a 50/50 ethylene glycol mix http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html lists the 1 bar boiling point at 107.2 celsius.

Assuming (probably wrongly!) a linear response of antifreeze siolution to pressure, the boiling point of 109.32 multiplied by a factor of 1.072 would indicate that a 50/50 antifreeze mix at 1.4 bar would boil off, popping the cap, at 117.2 degrees.

And from bitter experience it makes a BIG mess, dumping approx 40percent of the coolant all over your engine bay.




Posted by: GialloEvo94 23rd October 2012 20:24

I'm with Mr '76 on this one in thinking you may have a faulty gauge or temp sensor. Get Multiecuscan (FES) hooked up to it ASAP and get a real reading from the ECU. Kirk had a similar issue a while back with a faulty sensor or gauge (I forget which).

I forget - does yours have a plastic or alloy top engine?

Posted by: stevepx 24th October 2012 01:05

QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 23rd October 2012 21:24) *
I'm with Mr '76 on this one in thinking you may have a faulty gauge or temp sensor. Get Multiecuscan (FES) hooked up to it ASAP and get a real reading from the ECU. Kirk had a similar issue a while back with a faulty sensor or gauge (I forget which).

I forget - does yours have a plastic or alloy top engine?



thanks guys......there were whisps of steam coming from under the bonnet and water had leaked out from somewhere around the expansion tank..

GE its a plastic top.....

'76 I dont have Fiatscan so can't check unfortunately...

i'll check the plug/earth as suggested and order another temp sensor...

thanks guys again........ worshippy.gif

Posted by: Fin 24th October 2012 11:53

QUOTE(stevepx @ 23rd October 2012 18:09) *
I'm at a loss, the head is fine, the block is fine, new thermostat.....what else is there!!!!??? sad.gif sad.gif

Balls... This does not sound good, although I'd start at the top and work your way down, particularly as you also say:
QUOTE(stevepx)
there were whisps of steam coming from under the bonnet and water had leaked out from somewhere around the expansion tank

I'd do a compression test on the new head for starters. You say it started OK but was running a bit lumpy after you got back home, and it also drove problem free for 80 miles before it suddenly started overheating. After that (if it passes the comp test) go round the engine and check every single hose and clip. If any are even slightly suspect, replace them and make sure they aren't over tightened. Also check the pipes (rubber and metal parts) for any cracks and/or damage and the expansion tank itself as previous overheating could have damaged that. Look for any signs of coolant leaking anywhere. Blue is fairly easy to spot with a good torch as it dries as a white/blueish powder, red is easier as it stays red though!

Let me know if you want to borrow a compression tester!

Posted by: stevepx 24th October 2012 13:18

OK heres an update...

Bottom hose is now not getting hot...Black146 I have tried pumping/squeezing the bottom hose but to no avail..(did it for about 10 minutes with the cap off)

It was running quite nicely this morning, not lump any more.. Stationary temp gets upto 90, stays for a while then starts to slowly climb, fan kicks in and remains on, temp gets upto about halfway between 90 & 130 and kinda sits there....did all this with the expansion cap off, water was steaming a little but not boiling....Have checked as many of the hoses/pipes I can get to and all seem in good order....still no heat in the car and the hose coming off the back of the thermostat at the top isn't very hot...is maybe the new stat faulty perhaps..??? I'm going to get some radiator flush and give that a go just to be sure...

Fin, thanks for all the advice....I've been on the phone to my mechanic who is at a loss too..I've also taken both top and bottom hose off and poured water into the top hose and it flowed through the rad and out of the bottom hose no problem. .I know the pump is mechanical but I'm still feeling that perhaps this might be a problem? Anyway i'll flush the cooling system and see if that makes an difference............

Posted by: GialloEvo94 24th October 2012 14:45

With the expansion tank cap off, the system won't be pressurised so the water will boil at 100 degrees instead of at a higher temperature. If your gauge was reading over that (sounds like it was saying ~110 degrees) and the water wasn't showing any signs of boiling then it suggests a faulty gauge or sensor to me. Do you have a thermometer you can stick in the expansion tank?

If you put your hand on the top hose of the radiator while someone revs the engine you should feel/hear water movement through the hose. Is this happening?

Aside from a failed water pump which is a possility, I'm also wondering if you have a blockage somewhere that is preventing a decent flow of water. I would certainly check for a radiator blockage by shoving a hose pipe in the top water feed and seeing if water flows freely from the bottom feed pipe.

These are a few more things for you to try at least.

Posted by: Cloverleaf76 24th October 2012 16:29

Can I ask what should have been my first question: does the fan kick in at any point???

Posted by: stevepx 24th October 2012 17:49

OK................the saga continues further...

Bought a 2 stage rad flush which I have now used.

This is whats happening when stationary..

Engine comes upto temp pretty quickly, heater on and blowing cold
just above 90 the fan cuts in
then (I presume) the stat opens, fan turns off, temp gauge drops to just below 90 and lovely hot air blowing into the car
after a few minutes hot air stops and blows cold, temp rises above 90, fan cuts in, stat opens and hot air in the car again, gauge drops down..

Now you would have thought this would happen all day but it doesnt

after a couple of cycles the temp gauge starts to climb, fan comes on but doesn't stop, no hot air blowing and bottom hose on rad is cold..eventually I have to shut the engine off as temp very slowly continues to rise..

It was doing this with the old thermostat which is why i thought it needed a new one...could the new stat be faulty?? Bit worried as this engine has been through lots of heat cycles...

GE i poured water (at gravity speed) into the top hose and it flowed very well straight out of the bottom hose so I assume there are no blockages there..

I'm all a bit lost now.......

Have done the coolant flush thingy so if there was any crap in the system it should be gone now...





Posted by: black 146 24th October 2012 18:09

QUOTE(stevepx @ 24th October 2012 18:49) *
OK................the saga continues further...

Bought a 2 stage rad flush which I have now used.

This is whats happening when stationary..

Engine comes upto temp pretty quickly, heater on and blowing cold
just above 90 the fan cuts in
then (I presume) the stat opens, fan turns off, temp gauge drops to just below 90 and lovely hot air blowing into the car
after a few minutes hot air stops and blows cold, temp rises above 90, fan cuts in, stat opens and hot air in the car again, gauge drops down..

Now you would have thought this would happen all day but it doesnt

after a couple of cycles the temp gauge starts to climb, fan comes on but doesn't stop, no hot air blowing and bottom hose on rad is cold..eventually I have to shut the engine off as temp very slowly continues to rise..

It was doing this with the old thermostat which is why i thought it needed a new one...could the new stat be faulty?? Bit worried as this engine has been through lots of heat cycles...

GE i poured water (at gravity speed) into the top hose and it flowed very well straight out of the bottom hose so I assume there are no blockages there..

I'm all a bit lost now.......

Have done the coolant flush thingy so if there was any crap in the system it should be gone now...





this is a pain bum !. did you check your earth's have you put a new temp sensor in on the thermostat

Posted by: Fin 25th October 2012 10:11

QUOTE(stevepx @ 24th October 2012 18:49) *
after a couple of cycles the temp gauge starts to climb, fan comes on but doesn't stop, no hot air blowing and bottom hose on rad is cold..eventually I have to shut the engine off as temp very slowly continues to rise..


To me, that sounds exactly like a failed head gasket again... Or rather, that is what happened with mine both times it failed. And it wasn't loosing loads of water , just gaining quite a lot of pressure until it escaped from the header tank cap.

It is very unlikely that the new stat would be faulty, although I've seen different ones doing slightly different things temperature wise. Is it a Facet, or something else?

The water pump could still be a bit of a suspect if the rotor has been damaged in any way and come off the spindle. There was a flow of water when you checked it, but without actually physically taking the thing out and inspecting it you can't be certain it's not causing problems.

Compression test the thing first so you can rule out any more head and/or gasket damage!

Here's one I did earlier:



Posted by: stevepx 25th October 2012 14:20

Thanks......3 gaskets in a month!! surely that can't be right...which the hell could be causing it??

I'll get my mechanic to do a pressure test and then go from there but if it is a gasket failure then unfortunately I can't justify throwing more money at it.

Thanks guys...

Posted by: stevepx 26th October 2012 12:33

Firstly thanks for all your help and suggestions...

I have decided to call it a day with my 146...to be honest I've just lost heart as well as most of my savings and the past few weeks have done me in. I can no longer justify throwing hard earned cash as this car.

It's going to get weighed in in a couple of weeks so if anyone out there wants any bits for example SuperSprint rear box, 17" alloys (see my garage) Sparco adjustable strutbrace, K&N Filter and metal piping etc etc etc let me know. I don't have any space to store stuff and I will need to drive it to the scrap yard (or at the very least tow it). Sensible offers please unless someone wants to chuck 250 my way and you can have the car..

It's certainly been eventful this Alfa ownership!!

Posted by: GialloEvo94 26th October 2012 21:20

QUOTE(stevepx @ 26th October 2012 13:33) *
Firstly thanks for all your help and suggestions...

I have decided to call it a day with my 146...to be honest I've just lost heart as well as most of my savings and the past few weeks have done me in. I can no longer justify throwing hard earned cash as this car.

Sorry to hear that. At the end of the day I guess you got to do what feels right and there always has to be a limit to how much money you throw at a problem.

If the rest of the car is sound then it looks like a complete replacement engine is probably the best option if someone decides to save this car.

Posted by: Persuader 12th August 2019 21:18

Anybody still here?
So i swapped our 145 CF2 1.6's head to a rebuilt one, and only had 2.0 cams at hand. I installed it, (with the 1.6 tools.. whistle.gif ) car fired up right away, got out at the road, but as soon it got into temps (solid 90c) it stalled. It fired up again, but under 2500rpm, it stalls again. Above 2500 its all fine, but as i let off the gas, it stops.
Will the 2.0 camlocks solve this?

Posted by: buellboy 13th August 2019 11:56

the camlocks only serve to keep the cams fixed in one place whilst you change the cambelt, i'm not sure that is your problems tbh, do you have an injector light on?


Posted by: dante giacosa 17th August 2019 02:48

QUOTE(buellboy @ 13th August 2019 12:56) *
the camlocks only serve to keep the cams fixed in one place whilst you change the cambelt, i'm not sure that is your problems tbh, do you have an injector light on?


I'm with Buell on this...

Posted by: sanitary 17th August 2019 09:22

camlocks for belt change only

don't drive with them fitted unsure.gif



san

Posted by: Persuader 19th August 2019 06:26

Okay, so cams are in time with the 2.0 tool. Cleaned all the earth cable connections, all the connectors, did a reset with OBD and made the car learn the idle for 20 mins.
Now it starts and idles like a rock smile.gif And goes like a rocket...

BUT! I still get blue smoke, when accelerating harder. Nothing on cold/startup/idle.
The whole procedure started as a head job. The backstory is kinda messy... We are the 3rd owners since 2013. A not so alfa specialized mech had the head removed, and he did put it back, and told me it was a bit pitted (i could get a better one in one day if he was told me in time..) I'll please you with pics blink.gif
So i got a renewed head. Skimmed, valve seals replaced, bought a new gasket set. Put it back all together. All the 4 pots have over 12 bars of pressure (about 175psi) and now it works as normal, but still blue smoke.
I checked the PCV valve, it seems normal. I was trying to get a new one lately for our other car, but it seems like impossible.

Any thoughts on this?


Posted by: 130tc 19th August 2019 09:38

Hi Persuader,

what oil are you running in it mine drinks 0w-30 but uses next to none 10w-60.

Posted by: Persuader 19th August 2019 11:34

QUOTE(130tc @ 19th August 2019 09:38) *
Hi Persuader,

what oil are you running in it mine drinks 0w-30 but uses next to none 10w-60.


0w30 omg smile.gif It runs on 10w40, but on the other 1.6TS we have i use motul 10w60 also with wery low consumption. Deft'ly will be the next thing to change.

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