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> QV won't start, no fuel, no spark
zanetti
post 1st April 2017 13:17
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So I just tested my 147 2.0 using the actuator test and the sound was identical, very faint ticks. My 147 driver perfectly.
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GialloEvo94
post 1st April 2017 14:02
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QUOTE(zanetti @ 1st April 2017 14:17) *
So I just tested my 147 2.0 using the actuator test and the sound was identical, very faint ticks. My 147 driver perfectly.

Do the injectors on your 147 actually squirt any fuel when running the actuator tests?


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zanetti
post 1st April 2017 17:35
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QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 1st April 2017 16:02) *
Do the injectors on your 147 actually squirt any fuel when running the actuator tests?


That's a good question, I'll have to check that.

I read on one the posts that if the ECU has been reset them the can sensor is require to give the ECU an initial value, this is the one thing not check as I thought that it wasn't required for an engine start?
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GialloEvo94
post 1st April 2017 18:57
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QUOTE(zanetti @ 1st April 2017 18:35) *
I read on one the posts that if the ECU has been reset them the can sensor is require to give the ECU an initial value, this is the one thing not check as I thought that it wasn't required for an engine start?

No, the cam phase sensor doesn't prevent the engine starting. It just helps the ECU know when piston #1 is at TDC so it can be more efficient with fuelling. If the cam phase sensor isn't working then the engine will still fire up and run.

Also, one other thing. When you were originally checking the injectors by applying 12v directly to them, were you doing this by taking wires straight from each battery terminal to the injectors? If you were then I suggest that you do it slightly differently by turning the ignition to MAR so that the injectors are getting +12v via relay S41 (i.e. so you are utilising the original wiring on the +12v side of the injectors). Then using a temporary piece of wire with one end connected to the -ve side of the injector, first try connecting the other end directly to the -ve terminal of the battery, then do another test by connecting that end to earth point G60 (i.e. the same earth point as used by the ECU). Then report back with the results.


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zanetti
post 1st April 2017 20:56
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QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 1st April 2017 20:57) *
No, the cam phase sensor doesn't prevent the engine starting. It just helps the ECU know when piston #1 is at TDC so it can be more efficient with fuelling. If the cam phase sensor isn't working then the engine will still fire up and run.

Also, one other thing. When you were originally checking the injectors by applying 12v directly to them, were you doing this by taking wires straight from each battery terminal to the injectors? If you were then I suggest that you do it slightly differently by turning the ignition to MAR so that the injectors are getting +12v via relay S41 (i.e. so you are utilising the original wiring on the +12v side of the injectors). Then using a temporary piece of wire with one end connected to the -ve side of the injector, first try connecting the other end directly to the -ve terminal of the battery, then do another test by connecting that end to earth point G60 (i.e. the same earth point as used by the ECU). Then report back with the results.


Originally I did test the injectors with direct battery connection but I just tested them now as you suggested and both with 12v side of the connector to battery negative and then to G60 the injector operated and squirted fuel.

This post has been edited by zanetti: 1st April 2017 21:03
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GialloEvo94
post 1st April 2017 22:49
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QUOTE(zanetti @ 1st April 2017 21:56) *
Originally I did test the injectors with direct battery connection but I just tested them now as you suggested and both with 12v side of the connector to battery negative and then to G60 the injector operated and squirted fuel.

OK, so doing that has proved that the original +12v injector wiring is passing enough current to fully operate the injectors.

There is now only one wire of the original circuit that has not yet been tested for the passing of current. This is the wire going from pin 14 in the 55-pin ECU connector to the G60 earthing point and is the wire that supplies an earth connection to the injectors.

Perform the previous test again using the original +12v wiring through relay S41 with the ignition switched to MAR, but this time for the -ve part of the circuit, connect one end of a temporary wire to the -ve terminal of the injector and the other end of that wire into pin 14 of the 55-pin ECU plug. You will obviously need to remove the ECU plug to do this and you may need to find something small enough to poke into pin 14 of the ECU plug. Doing this test will then utilise the whole of the original injector circuit wiring. Please report back if the injector squirts any fuel when you do this.


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zanetti
post 1st April 2017 23:33
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QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 2nd April 2017 00:49) *
OK, so doing that has proved that the original +12v injector wiring is passing enough current to fully operate the injectors.

There is now only one wire of the original circuit that has not yet been tested for the passing of current. This is the wire going from pin 14 in the 55-pin ECU connector to the G60 earthing point and is the wire that supplies an earth connection to the injectors.

Perform the previous test again using the original +12v wiring through relay S41 with the ignition switched to MAR, but this time for the -ve part of the circuit, connect one end of a temporary wire to the -ve terminal of the injector and the other end of that wire into pin 14 of the 55-pin ECU plug. You will obviously need to remove the ECU plug to do this and you may need to find something small enough to poke into pin 14 of the ECU plug. Doing this test will then utilise the whole of the original injector circuit wiring. Please report back if the injector squirts any fuel when you do this.


I'll check this, when I did a ground check on the ECU connector there was a good ground on Pin 14 but I did not check if it could properly carry power, I'll check and report back.
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Ganz
post 2nd April 2017 00:13
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QUOTE(zanetti @ 28th March 2017 07:40) *
Thanks Ganz but it would appear as GE says, that the other relay I have is not S42, this has been integrated (M2.10.4 ECU) and the key operated supply goes directly to the ECU, the other relay I have is most likely the A/C relay.

I've also read a lot about the cam sensor making no difference to the car starting but according to the manual it is needed for the time injection of the car, any experience with that? Perhaps it is different on the cf1 vs cf2?

I really want to drive my 145 now, this is becoming such a pia now!

According to everything I've checked that car should be starting!! But no, nothing.

No negative pulse from the ECU, why oh why?

I should hopefully have another diagnostic cable by the weekend but I doubt it will tell me anything at all...


You're right. You have the 4 relays at the front which I didn't think appeared on 1996 cars. Strange as I thought your Bbob only appeared on cf2s. I couldn't get my Multiscan to work on my car. It works fine on the 147 but the 145 cf1 is different with the three leads and I never got mine to work. Don't think it would have been the crank sensor as that only fails when it gets hot and if you pour cold water over it it will work again. The cam sensor is unlikely unless it has been tampered around with.

I know it sounds obvious but as you have already checked the pins on the ECU have you checked the relays? Can you swap the relays with the 147 ones - if they are the same? Tell me to shut up if I am adding to to confusion. I'm not trying to compete against the 'heavy hitters' on this forum blush.gif

Be interesting to see how this pans out.

This post has been edited by Ganz: 2nd April 2017 00:26


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GialloEvo94
post 2nd April 2017 00:28
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QUOTE(zanetti @ 2nd April 2017 00:33) *
QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 1st April 2017 23:49) *
OK, so doing that has proved that the original +12v injector wiring is passing enough current to fully operate the injectors.

There is now only one wire of the original circuit that has not yet been tested for the passing of current. This is the wire going from pin 14 in the 55-pin ECU connector to the G60 earthing point and is the wire that supplies an earth connection to the injectors.

Perform the previous test again using the original +12v wiring through relay S41 with the ignition switched to MAR, but this time for the -ve part of the circuit, connect one end of a temporary wire to the -ve terminal of the injector and the other end of that wire into pin 14 of the 55-pin ECU plug. You will obviously need to remove the ECU plug to do this and you may need to find something small enough to poke into pin 14 of the ECU plug. Doing this test will then utilise the whole of the original injector circuit wiring. Please report back if the injector squirts any fuel when you do this.

I'll check this, when I did a ground check on the ECU connector there was a good ground on Pin 14 but I did not check if it could properly carry power, I'll check and report back.

I realised I forgot to mention that if you do this test with the ECU plug disconnected as suggested, you will also need to connect pins 3 and 36 in that connector to an earth point because normally the ECU would provide a switched earth on those pins which it won't be able to do with the plug disconnected. Pin 3 is to energise relay S12a which powers the fuel pump (which you obviously need running for the test to work), and pin 36 is to energise relay S41 which powers the rest of the ignition system components (which you obviously need in order to get +12v to the injectors).


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zanetti
post 2nd April 2017 07:10
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QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 2nd April 2017 02:28) *
I'll check this, when I did a ground check on the ECU connector there was a good ground on Pin 14 but I did not check if it could properly carry power, I'll check and report back.
I realised I forgot to mention that if you do this test with the ECU plug disconnected as suggested, you will also need to connect pins 3 and 36 in that connector to an earth point because normally the ECU would provide a switched earth on those pins which it won't be able to do with the plug disconnected. Pin 3 is to energise relay S12a which powers the fuel pump (which you obviously need running for the test to work), and pin 36 is to energise relay S41 which powers the rest of the ignition system components (which you obviously need in order to get +12v to the injectors).


With manual grounding on ECU connector to pins 3, 36 and 14 with Pin 14 supplying ground to injector and 12v from injector connector to injector they squirt fuel perfectly. So the loom ground seems to be fine.

Again thinking that perhaps the ECU isn't getting a signal to trigger the injectors, I tested Pin 48 and 49 on the ECU connector and I'm getting voltage from the crank sensor when cranking so the loom is ok as well as the crank sensor.
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zanetti
post 2nd April 2017 07:23
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QUOTE(Ganz @ 2nd April 2017 02:13) *
You're right. You have the 4 relays at the front which I didn't think appeared on 1996 cars. Strange as I thought your Bbob only appeared on cf2s. I couldn't get my Multiscan to work on my car. It works fine on the 147 but the 145 cf1 is different with the three leads and I never got mine to work. Don't think it would have been the crank sensor as that only fails when it gets hot and if you pour cold water over it it will work again. The cam sensor is unlikely unless it has been tampered around with.

I know it sounds obvious but as you have already checked the pins on the ECU have you checked the relays? Can you swap the relays with the 147 ones - if they are the same? Tell me to shut up if I am adding to to confusion. I'm not trying to compete against the 'heavy hitters' on this forum blush.gif

Be interesting to see how this pans out.


I do have 4 relays but I think the 4th is actually the A/C relay as not S42 as the manual states because I have key-operated 12v directly to the ECU from G1, if I remove the so called S42 relay it makes no difference to anything.

I believe the crank sensor is fine, I did replace it though as a matter of course.

I redone the BBoB and I'm getting power to all the necessary components, I've also checked all the ECU pins and they appear to be 100% - I'm considering opening the ECU and testing the pins from the inside with the ECU activated - yes, very dangerous indeed but I'm running out of ideas here!
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GialloEvo94
post 2nd April 2017 08:43
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QUOTE(zanetti @ 2nd April 2017 08:10) *
With manual grounding on ECU connector to pins 3, 36 and 14 with Pin 14 supplying ground to injector and 12v from injector connector to injector they squirt fuel perfectly. So the loom ground seems to be fine.

Again thinking that perhaps the ECU isn't getting a signal to trigger the injectors, I tested Pin 48 and 49 on the ECU connector and I'm getting voltage from the crank sensor when cranking so the loom is ok as well as the crank sensor.

OK, so at least it's now been proven that the complete circuit for the injector wiring in the loom all the way from +12v to earth has continuity, is supplying the correct voltage level, and is able to supply enough current to drive the injectors.

The only thing that really controls the timing of the firing of the injectors and spark plugs is the crank sensor with help from the cam sensor (if it's working, which it doesn't need to be).

The next test is to run a MES diagnostic session on the 4 parameters shown in the screenshot below (the ones selected and shown in red) and then crank over the engine. These will tell you if the CODE immobiliser is allowing the ECU to start the car and if the ECU is getting a proper signal from the RPM sensor. Just switch to the graph view if it will help to visualise things a bit better. Do this test and report back your findings.

(click on picture to enlarge)
Attached Image


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zanetti
post 2nd April 2017 10:04
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QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 2nd April 2017 10:43) *
OK, so at least it's now been proven that the complete circuit for the injector wiring in the loom all the way from +12v to earth has continuity, is supplying the correct voltage level, and is able to supply enough current to drive the injectors.

The only thing that really controls the timing of the firing of the injectors and spark plugs is the crank sensor with help from the cam sensor (if it's working, which it doesn't need to be).

The next test is to run a MES diagnostic session on the 4 parameters shown in the screenshot below (the ones selected and shown in red) and then crank over the engine. These will tell you if the CODE immobiliser is allowing the ECU to start the car and if the ECU is getting a proper signal from the RPM sensor. Just switch to the graph view if it will help to visualise things a bit better. Do this test and report back your findings.

(click on picture to enlarge)
Attached Image


I'm getting
Universal Code Not Enable (since I don't have a CAN BUS)
Engine Startup Allowed (CODE working)

Then as soon as I crank the engine over MES disconnects... ?

I wonder if there isn't enough power to crank and keep the ECU connected? I have tried the battery from my 147 which is new and the same result. That would explain the fact that I have positive voltage at the injectors and coil packs but they don't fire since the ECU is switching off momentarily and thus unable to switch the ground to the injectors and coils.

This post has been edited by zanetti: 2nd April 2017 10:44
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GialloEvo94
post 2nd April 2017 18:11
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QUOTE(zanetti @ 2nd April 2017 11:04) *
I'm getting
Universal Code Not Enable (since I don't have a CAN BUS)
Engine Startup Allowed (CODE working)

Then as soon as I crank the engine over MES disconnects... ?

Well that's not going to be much use then unfortunately. Maybe it's expected that diagnostics software cannot be used during cranking. The ECU may well even purposely chop off communications to the K-Line while cranking. I believe that you're right with the Universal Code which won't be applicable on these cars as there is no BCM. I guess it might apply to other cars that use the same type of ECU which is why that parameter is showing in the list. The one good thing that has come out of this test is that at least you know for sure that the non-starting has nothing to do with the immobiliser because the Engine Startup has a status of Allowed which means the CODE immobiliser is passing a valid code to the engine ECU.

QUOTE
I wonder if there isn't enough power to crank and keep the ECU connected? I have tried the battery from my 147 which is new and the same result. That would explain the fact that I have positive voltage at the injectors and coil packs but they don't fire since the ECU is switching off momentarily and thus unable to switch the ground to the injectors and coils.

I can't see this being the problem because the starter motor takes it's cranking power directly from the battery, and as you've tried a known working battery from your 147 then I think I would rule that theory out. If the starter motor cranking really was sucking that much power by itself so as to starve other components of voltage and current then you would also see all the other electrical systems suffering during the cranking process.

The only thing I think you have left to properly test is whether the crank sensor is providing a good and expected signal to at the ECU at the ECU connector pins. You obviously can't use the RPM value or graph in MES for that due to it disconnecting so the only other real way of doing that would be with an oscilloscope if you have one or can borrow one. While a multi-meter gives an indication of fluctuating, they don't react quick enough or show you how uniform/pure the voltage signal and waveform is which is something that an oscilloscope will actually do.

If it's not the crank sensor signal then I think there is only one thing left to point the finger at which is the ECU itself. While it is quite a rare occurrence for them to go wrong, it does happen sometimes so maybe you've just been one of the unlucky few. The only way to know for sure would be to either find an ECU specialist who can properly test your ECU (and possibly even repair it if it turns out to be faulty), or find a know working used M2.10.4 ECU along with it's paired CODE immobiliser box and paired transponder chips and put that in your car.

Also, another thing to keep in mind is that the injectors are not squirting any fuel during their actuation test where there is no engine cranking involved even though we know all the wiring for them is spot fine for both voltage and current. This is another reason to suspect a potential fault with the ECU itself.


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zanetti
post 2nd April 2017 19:10
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QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 2nd April 2017 20:11) *
Well that's not going to be much use then unfortunately. Maybe it's expected that diagnostics software cannot be used during cranking. The ECU may well even purposely chop off communications to the K-Line while cranking. I believe that you're right with the Universal Code which won't be applicable on these cars as there is no BCM. I guess it might apply to other cars that use the same type of ECU which is why that parameter is showing in the list. The one good thing that has come out of this test is that at least you know for sure that the non-starting has nothing to do with the immobiliser because the Engine Startup has a status of Allowed which means the CODE immobiliser is passing a valid code to the engine ECU.
I can't see this being the problem because the starter motor takes it's cranking power directly from the battery, and as you've tried a known working battery from your 147 then I think I would rule that theory out. If the starter motor cranking really was sucking that much power by itself so as to starve other components of voltage and current then you would also see all the other electrical systems suffering during the cranking process.

The only thing I think you have left to properly test is whether the crank sensor is providing a good and expected signal to at the ECU at the ECU connector pins. You obviously can't use the RPM value or graph in MES for that due to it disconnecting so the only other real way of doing that would be with an oscilloscope if you have one or can borrow one. While a multi-meter gives an indication of fluctuating, they don't react quick enough or show you how uniform/pure the voltage signal and waveform is which is something that an oscilloscope will actually do.

If it's not the crank sensor signal then I think there is only one thing left to point the finger at which is the ECU itself. While it is quite a rare occurrence for them to go wrong, it does happen sometimes so maybe you've just been one of the unlucky few. The only way to know for sure would be to either find an ECU specialist who can properly test your ECU (and possibly even repair it if it turns out to be faulty), or find a know working used M2.10.4 ECU along with it's paired CODE immobiliser box and paired transponder chips and put that in your car.

Also, another thing to keep in mind is that the injectors are not squirting any fuel during their actuation test where there is no engine cranking involved even though we know all the wiring for them is spot fine for both voltage and current. This is another reason to suspect a potential fault with the ECU itself.


Thanks GE, yes I tend to agree that the most likely suspect at the moment is the ECU itself. The weird thing is that everything appears fine relating to the ECU such as I can manually actuate the injectors, it supplies all details via MES and it recognises the CODE unit etc.

I was actually trying to get hold of an oscilloscope today but didn't manage to. The crank sensor is brand new though and the previous one was exactly in spec according to its datasheet.

I'm going to try to find an ECU specialist to test the ECU so that I can at least rule that out.

This post has been edited by zanetti: 2nd April 2017 19:11
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GialloEvo94
post 2nd April 2017 20:18
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QUOTE(zanetti @ 2nd April 2017 20:10) *
The weird thing is that everything appears fine relating to the ECU such as I can manually actuate the injectors

Yes, but the injectors are not squirting any fuel when you perform the actuator test even though all the wiring to them checks out to be 100% fine for both voltage and current. If semiconductors break down in a circuit they can start causing all sorts of strange behaviour to occur. There could well be one or more failed (or failing) transistors somewhere on the ECU circuit board that is causing your issues by only allowing a limited amount of current to pass through them to the injectors and spark plug coils. Only a specialist who has the knowledge and equipment to fully test ECUs is going to be able to tell you that.


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zanetti
post 3rd April 2017 03:15
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QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 2nd April 2017 22:18) *
Yes, but the injectors are not squirting any fuel when you perform the actuator test even though all the wiring to them checks out to be 100% fine for both voltage and current. If semiconductors break down in a circuit they can start causing all sorts of strange behaviour to occur. There could well be one or more failed (or failing) transistors somewhere on the ECU circuit board that is causing your issues by only allowing a limited amount of current to pass through them to the injectors and spark plug coils. Only a specialist who has the knowledge and equipment to fully test ECUs is going to be able to tell you that.


That is completely true and I agree 100% - things can look like new but still be failing when under load or just completely randomly.

I have found a company close to where I am that can test the ECU. I'll update once I've had it checked.
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zanetti
post 7th April 2017 14:50
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So the mystery is solved!

As it turns out I am one of the select few to have a knackered ECU.

Decided against a repair as just the cost to diagnose the ECU was crazy.

I found a well priced replacement, plugged it in with code unit and she started right away!

One problem I have is that I got only one red key with the ECU, so i removed the transponder from my Burgundy key from the original ignition and then put the key from the replacement ECU on top of the barrel. Is I'd like to swap transponders but the key seems sealed, any thoughts?
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GialloEvo94
post 7th April 2017 15:27
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QUOTE(zanetti @ 7th April 2017 15:50) *
As it turns out I am one of the select few to have a knackered ECU.

Decided against a repair as just the cost to diagnose the ECU was crazy.

I found a well priced replacement, plugged it in with code unit and she started right away!

Good news then smile.gif Replacing the ECU always ends up being the last resort due to the cost involved and the fact that they rarely go wrong but it just goes to prove that it does sometimes happen.

QUOTE
One problem I have is that I got only one red key with the ECU, so i removed the transponder from my Burgundy key from the original ignition and then put the key from the replacement ECU on top of the barrel. Is I'd like to swap transponders but the key seems sealed, any thoughts?

Unfortunately you're not going to be able to swap the transponder in your original key because the head is moulded onto them after the original transponder chip is fitted. The only way of getting into them is by butchering the head off but that then makes the key pretty much useless...



Did you get a master key with the new ECU / CODE immobiliser, or was it just a standard red key? Your options on what to do will depend on whether you've got a master key or not.


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zanetti
post 7th April 2017 19:12
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Local Time: 24th October 2017 09:44
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Driving: Alfa Romeo 147 2.0 TS
From: South Africa



QUOTE(GialloEvo94 @ 7th April 2017 17:27) *
Good news then smile.gif Replacing the ECU always ends up being the last resort due to the cost involved and the fact that they rarely go wrong but it just goes to prove that it does sometimes happen.
Unfortunately you're not going to be able to swap the transponder in your original key because the head is moulded onto them after the original transponder chip is fitted. The only way of getting into them is by butchering the head off but that then makes the key pretty much useless...



Did you get a master key with the new ECU / CODE immobiliser, or was it just a standard red key? Your options on what to do will depend on whether you've got a master key or not.


Yes I'm really happy and now I also know, after all the testing, that the majority of the electrical system is good!

Thanks for all the help!

Well, I have only the red key, no master key with the replacement ECU/CODE box.


This post has been edited by zanetti: 7th April 2017 19:13
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