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> Idle control valve always on closing winding
Nikta
post 5th May 2019 09:46
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Dear all,

as I turn key to on (engine off) the idle control valve turn on and closing winding.
But the motor of the valve doesn't stop to run, It's always on and you can hear it running, kepping winding closed, and it will not stop running even turning on car which cannot keep idle.
I've check pin 3 with 2 send opening signal correctly.

What could it be?
With a new valve it's the same
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dante giacosa
post 6th May 2019 08:29
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hey Nikta-

welcome aboard!

I'm not sure I understand- are you saying that once 'closed', the motor continues to run in the ideal control valve..?

What effect does it have on the car; is the car stalling?

Does you car have a metal or plastic topped engine..?

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Nikta
post 6th May 2019 12:24
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QUOTE(dante giacosa @ 6th May 2019 10:29) *
I'm not sure I understand- are you saying that once 'closed', the motor continues to run in the ideal control valve..?
What effect does it have on the car; is the car stalling?
Does you car have a metal or plastic topped engine..?



Hi Dante

thank you for your answer.

Yes, the idle valve closes the winding and the moter inside the idle valve continues to run has it doesn't receive the "stop message", "hey you closed it! stop now!".

If I turn on the car it stalls.

No plastic, it's the boxer 1.7 16v year 1995 (alfa 146).

I've found a work around disconnecting the idle valve and putting something in to keep the winding half opened, and it works fine and I used it like this for few years.

Now I wanted to make it back working to see if I could solve another problem, the car is pulling if I release the accelerator when I'm at high rpm on 2nd or if I drive on some "hole" in the street" on 2nd.
I do not touch anything and it continues to pull for few seconds. (it could be also the clutch maybe?)

Anyway the idle vale is the bosch 0280140527, I bought a new one but it's the same it continues to run (I bought a 0280140501 not original, someone says it's not ok for my car, but the only difference is the winding closing from the short side instead the long one).

In the evening I will try to connect to MES and see what it says, but it looks like the circuit of the idle valve is always open to close the winding, but I do not know what should give the stop message.

Any suggest are welcome!

Thank you!


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donutty
post 7th May 2019 08:13
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Operating the idle control actuator is controlled directly by ECU. It is this ECU that sends the signal 'open valve' or 'close valve'. And ECU only sends these signals because of some other engine sensor signal reporting that ignition conditions are not correct; it is a closed loop feedback system.

I have already battled my own idle / engine management issues with my 145 and there are only a handful of sensors and conditions for correct ignition / idle / smooth running but the challenge is to find exactly which one is causing problems. I think for example with my troubles it is the lambda sensor. It will help to have some diagnostic equipment (MultiECUscan for example) then you can see what sensor readings are at error and might tell the ECU to do the incorrect action (i.e. keep idle valve closed)
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Nikta
post 7th May 2019 17:35
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I've tried to connect to ECU but I couldn't success.

I've try to connect to cable on the left but it can find only ABS.

Attached Image


Then I've tried to connect to the two cables in the centre, first I disconnected they grey and connected to it with the computer and then the black one.
Multiecuscan couldn't find anything with a scan.
Attached Image


I've checked behind the battery but there's no other cables.

Where should the right cable be?


Then I did other tests, I disconnected debimeter and the lambda, but the motor inside the idle valve was still running.

I couldn't disconnect the potentiometer of the throttle valve because of the position....
I think I will have to bring to a garage to have a look.

Thank you!
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lancer778544
post 7th May 2019 19:46
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Hi Nikta, on my UK RHD 1995 1.7, the left most 3 pin connector is the ECU, the middle black one is airbag (don't think I have a grey one in the middle) and the one on the right is the ABS pump. These may be different on your Italian LHD (?) car though.
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donutty
post 8th May 2019 07:03
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The correct style connector for ECU is of the type you show, the Sureseal yellow and red connector between the manifold and suspension strut in your 1st photo.
When connecting to ECU, did you also provide + and - from the battery to your OBD adaptor. I don't think the old style Fiat / Alfa diagnostic connector for ECU carries the power, you have to provide it.
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Nikta
post 8th May 2019 16:55
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QUOTE(donutty @ 8th May 2019 09:03) *
The correct style connector for ECU is of the type you show, the Sureseal yellow and red connector between the manifold and suspension strut in your 1st photo.
When connecting to ECU, did you also provide + and - from the battery to your OBD adaptor. I don't think the old style Fiat / Alfa diagnostic connector for ECU carries the power, you have to provide it.


Thank you all for you help.

In the second photo you can see another yellow connector below the grey plug (in the picture is connected).

Regarding the connection to the battery yes, I've conntected the + and - to the battery but on the connector of picture one only ABS results from scanning.

This morning I brought the car to the car electrics service but they couln'd connect as well using the cables of pics 1 and 2, tomorrow morning they will have a better look.

I will keep you update.
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Nikta
post 9th May 2019 15:40
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so car electric service was unprofessional, they kept the car two days and the first one they couldn't even connect to the car.
The secon day the finally found the connector under the sponge on the left next to the abs one.
They said there's no error exept one that was cleared by itself but as i understood they did not understand the issue at all.
I threw money away.

I came back home and finally connected to ecu.

first time I connected there was this error that actually disappered by itself:
Attached Image


Then I accelerated the car and this came out:
Attached Image



I turn off the car, turn on MARCIA and connected again, no errors.
I turned on the engine I accellerated and lambda error came out again (no lights error on the dash inside the car anyway).

I tuned off the car again and set key at MARCIA position, so I did the test for the idle speed actuator, and it opens and close correctly so I think the motor inside always on should be the normal behavior to be ready to move the winding.

I did the test with engine on and it fails, maybe because it cannot test while engine is on?

Here the parameters when idle:
Attached Image

Attached Image


how are they?

Anyway if I accelerated while car doesn't move it almost stalls.
When I drive and stop it stalls.

If I use the new idle valve the stall is even faster because it closes better than the old valve.

I went to another garage, and he said the lambda error probably come out because a gpl system is installed.
He tried to set the idle with the two screw on the throttle bodies and it looked really fine at first test without driving.
But driving it's the same.

I will bring it back probably to him to clean the throttle change the 4 clamps which keeps connected air intake and bodies.

What do you think?

Thank you all!
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Nikta
post 9th May 2019 18:46
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Hi again,

I've read in this thread that disconnecting the lambda would "solve" the issue if it is its fault.

According to this picture, S35 is the lambda connector, do you have any idea where is the right location? I can't understand... it's in the back or in the middle of what? huh.gif

Attached Image


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donutty
post 10th May 2019 07:43
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Attached Image


This is the connector in the engine bay (at the back wall - ie under the windshield, on my car '96 Twinspark).
I think the car diagram you showed is the location of the sensor - in the exhaust system
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Nikta
post 10th May 2019 19:08
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Actually it wasn't the location of the lambda at the exhaust nor the connector biggrin.gif

I finally found the connector of the lambda on the right of the engine below the gpl stuff.

So I disconnected it and no value was shown on multiecuscan so it was the right one.

Unfortunately the issue is still there, nothing changed, I've installed the new idle valve but nothing changed, after accelerating engine stalls.

I've reconnected the lambda, and at first it stucked at 0.4mv then it started to move and I attach one graph and 3 csv.

Would you please have a look at them if the values are fine?

This morning I've noticed that the problem is not present when engine is cold, after accelerating engine doesn't stall and it doesn't give any sign of stalling, instead it stalls as soon as it get hot (as soon as the temperature indicatore move a bit up).

I will try to clean the lambda tomorrow, but I have no idea whether it is the problem or not and I do not know what else to check.

Please help me worshippy.gif
Attached Image

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Attached File  data.zip ( 2.88k ) Number of downloads: 16
 
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Nikta
post 13th May 2019 18:33
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Hi again,

so I did lots of test these days.

I cleaned lambda, and disconnected all sensor creating various combination (such as: disconnecting lambda, then MAF, then togher, then adding potentiometer of the bodies and so on).

What gave me good result was:

1) Disconnecting MAF, decelereting the engine stop for a moment at idle rpms and then starts to oscillates but doesn't stall and get back to idle.

2) Then I read this:
FUEL CUT-OFF DURING DECELERATION:
with throttle closed and an engine speed above a certain threshold, the control unit de-activates fuel injection; this way the rpms decrease radpidly towards idle speed reducing the speed and fuel consumption. The threshold values varies according to the temperature of the engine and the speed of the car.

So I disconnected engine temperature sensor and deceleretaing it stops at rpms idle without any kind oscillation, even stopping suddnely or turning and so on.


Being without MAF it's quite annoying to start (it needs great acceleration) then it's fine.

How long can I drive without them?

Does it make sense and they could be both faulty?

Changing one and the other is the only way to find it out, right?

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donutty
post 13th May 2019 20:18
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Try this, I (think) it worked for me (see my topic Rough Idle after engine rebuild)...

In multiECUscan, toggle the actuators that relate to the engine a few times. I think on mine something was stuck, so maybe it helps to exercise them?

But I would also pay attention to the Lambda error code - for 60 euro you can buy a new Bosch sensor. It might actually be faulty, and I don't think you can really clean them back to health.

This post has been edited by donutty: 13th May 2019 20:25
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Nikta
post 25th May 2019 09:46
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QUOTE(donutty @ 13th May 2019 22:18) *
Try this, I (think) it worked for me (see my topic Rough Idle after engine rebuild)...

In multiECUscan, toggle the actuators that relate to the engine a few times. I think on mine something was stuck, so maybe it helps to exercise them?

But I would also pay attention to the Lambda error code - for 60 euro you can buy a new Bosch sensor. It might actually be faulty, and I don't think you can really clean them back to health.


Yes I've alredy done it and it opens e closes fine.

I've changed MAF and nothing change, I found that injector cables of cylinders 1 and 3 were inverter.

Could you pleaese confirm order/position of them?

I've disconnected all electrical wires of gpl and its ECU.

Here it's what happens only when engine it's warm/hot:

https://youtu.be/OA1Hji9mhyU

Please help dunno.gif

This post has been edited by Nikta: 25th May 2019 09:47
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donutty
post 26th May 2019 13:19
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QUOTE(Nikta @ 25th May 2019 10:46) *
Yes I've alredy done it and it opens e closes fine.

I've changed MAF and nothing change, I found that injector cables of cylinders 1 and 3 were inverter.

Could you pleaese confirm order/position of them?

I've disconnected all electrical wires of gpl and its ECU.

Here it's what happens only when engine it's warm/hot:

https://youtu.be/OA1Hji9mhyU

Please help dunno.gif


Luckily, mine have numbers on the injector cables:

L (nearest oil filler lid) -R (nearest idle control valve) = 1-4 .

I viewed your video - strange behaviour. When I had my issue, the engine would fluctuate and hunt but the RPM on dash stayed constant.
Maybe an issue with crank speed sensor? Sending bad readings to the ECU ??
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Nikta
post 27th May 2019 15:08
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QUOTE(donutty @ 26th May 2019 15:19) *
Luckily, mine have numbers on the injector cables:

L (nearest oil filler lid) -R (nearest idle control valve) = 1-4 .

I viewed your video - strange behaviour. When I had my issue, the engine would fluctuate and hunt but the RPM on dash stayed constant.
Maybe an issue with crank speed sensor? Sending bad readings to the ECU ??



So I've disconnected all the electrical things of the GPL and I tested injectors and solenoid valve few times from multiecusan and this is the situation:

1) The issue doesn't happens when car is not moving
2) Driving and stopping, the issue (idle oscillation) happens but it's not so strong as in the video and it doesn't happens every time.
3) Engine doesn't stop anymore
4) Lambda error on multiecuscan (I think I will change this as well)
5) Starting the car it successes at second attempt

Anyway the car it's much better now.

Regarding the cables of the injectors I've numbers too, could you please confirm they should be connected as shown on this picture?:

Attached Image



Unfortunately I cannot find a cheap crank sensor, do you have any suggest or link?


Thank you very much again!
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donutty
post 27th May 2019 15:58
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Oh, sorry to confuse I forgot your car is Boxer!!! So what I said about position of things is not relevant to you... I have Twinspark 16v !! doh.gif

Maybe it's not the crank sensor; just strange to see RPM fluctuating. Certainly fit a new Lambda - MultiECU said mine was faulty, and it was.
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Nikta
post 27th May 2019 18:08
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QUOTE(donutty @ 27th May 2019 17:58) *
Oh, sorry to confuse I forgot your car is Boxer!!! So what I said about position of things is not relevant to you... I have Twinspark 16v !! doh.gif

Maybe it's not the crank sensor; just strange to see RPM fluctuating. Certainly fit a new Lambda - MultiECU said mine was faulty, and it was.


eheh don't worry:)

but do you know if the order is correct as shown in the picture?

When I disconnected GPL I found that cable 3 was left-down and cable 1 was left-up so I don't know if it was corrected like that or as I showed in the picture unsure.gif
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donutty
post 28th May 2019 09:45
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All I can offer is from the technical manual - you will have to check the colour of the 2nd wire in the injector connector:

1 = Yellow-black
2 = Grey-red
3 = Yellow
4 = Grey

Attached Image


This post has been edited by donutty: 28th May 2019 09:47
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