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Mielle145_170...
post 29th January 2007 11:53
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Hi,

I’m Michael from the Netherlands and I’m currently rebuilding a 1700 16V Boxer engine to fit in my 1400 8v Alfa Romeo 145. Can someone please advise me when it is necessarily to hone your engine en place oversized pistons?

The engine probably has run for 200K kilometers and is original from a Alfa 33. The plan is to modify this Alfa 33 engine to a 145 engine. I already got the Motronic 2.10.3 and all the wiring, inlet manifold an ignition from a old 145 engine.


Some other thinks I’m not really sure of are the camshafts and the crankshaft. Is it necessarily to get them grinded and balanced before getting new bearing caps? This because the manual says that you cannot grind these part because the have got a special coating for smooth operating… unsure.gif ?

If someone knows the answers to the questions or got some tips or tricks, please let me know. worshippy.gif

BTW Check the progres on my website HERE

This post has been edited by Mielle145_1700_16V: 29th January 2007 11:55


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AJ
post 29th January 2007 12:57
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If you want to use oversized pistons then you will need to have the block (or liners) re-bored. I don't know much about the boxer engine I'm afraid. If you don't choose to get a re-bore & new pistons then it is worth getting the block checked to make sure the cylinders are not too worn and that they have worn evenly - in which case if you are lucky a re-hone might just do it.


You don't need to get any parts balanced/ground as long as they have not worn or if you are not tuning the engine. The crank will need to be measured and then as a result of that dictates if you need the crank to be ground and you use bigger shells. Again, I've no idea about regrinds on a boxer. I think most cranks have a coating that shouldn't be ground, however a lot of places do seem to grind them anyway.


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GialloEvo94
post 29th January 2007 12:59
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Even if the engine doesn't require a rebore then I would still get the bore honed as a matter of course when rebuilding any engine. In order to tell whether or not the cylinders need to be bored to the next oversize, you need to take acurate bore measurements using a bore gauge. Take the measurements all round the bore of each cylinder in case any of the bores have "ovaled". If the measurement on any part of any of the cylinder bores is >= the upper threshold of the original bore size (or any of the oversize thresholds) then all 4 cylinder bores will need to be rebored to the next oversize up and then the correct oversized pistons/rings used. If you've already exceeded then threshold of the last available oversize then you will need a new block or new cylinder bore linings.

With regards to camshafts, if they are worn then it's usually just a case of replacing them. Regrinding isn't really an option on those. The crankshaft can be reground but it will need to be re-nitrided properly again afterwards so it the bearing surfaces are sufficiently hardened again. If you can still get new crankshafts for the boxer then you might find just replacing it completely an easier and more cost effective option. With regards to balancing the crankshaft then I suggest it would be a good idea to get the balancing checked if you're going to get your original one reground. New crankshafts will already be balanced well enough for a road car.


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GialloEvo94
post 29th January 2007 13:09
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Looks like I posted at the same time as AJ laugh.gif but were basically both telling you the same thing anyway smile.gif

With regards to the bore threshold sizes (including oversizes), if you've not already seen it then these are specified for the 1.7 16v Boxer engine on page 12 of this document.


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Mielle145_170...
post 29th January 2007 13:42
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Well thanks for your quick reactions.

I think I will take the next engine (from 33) apart this week, and take a good look at the ware an tare on the crank. Maybe (I really hope rolleyes.gif ) the crank will not have excessive tare around the bearing plates and I can maybe reuse this crank?

Furthermore I heard you CANNOT no3.gif use new bearing plates around the piston rods (Or how the thinks are called..) without grinding the crank down. It gets even worse, you will have to number the old bearing plates when you are getting them out, this because the will have to get them back in the same order otherwise your crank will get stuck…

Anyway, I think that grinding the crank down and get oversized bearings will be the easiest an cheapest way of refurbishing the crank.

Don’t forget, Dutch people don’t like spending money! tongue.gif


Thanks again for your reply’s


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Mielle145_170...
post 29th January 2007 14:00
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Sorry for my lack of English unsure.gif but what does "ground" mean. Is it the same like grinding the bearing tare away? >> [if you need the crank to be ground ]

>>EDIT<<

After some Googleling I felt like doh.gif (stupid). Past and present time enz blablabla oops.gif

This post has been edited by Mielle145_1700_16V: 29th January 2007 14:16


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Mielle145_170...
post 31st January 2007 06:54
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Yesterday I went to my local Alfa dealer to get a few things an asked him if the still sell new crankshafts. The do but the price on one off those is around €1300,- . blink.gif The all sow sell refurbished one’s for €300,- including new bearing caps.

I think I know what I’m going to buy! unsure.gif


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Mielle145_170...
post 31st January 2007 06:56
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QUOTE(Mielle145_1700_16V @ Jan 31 2007, 07:54 AM) *
Yesterday I went to my local Alfa dealer to get a few things an asked him if the still sell new crankshafts. The do but the price on one of those is around €1300,- . blink.gif The all sow sell refurbished one’s for €300,- including new bearing caps.

I think I know what I’m going to buy! unsure.gif


Probably this is a exchange part (Ore how do you call them)

This post has been edited by Mielle145_1700_16V: 31st January 2007 06:58


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AJ
post 31st January 2007 07:23
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QUOTE(Mielle145_1700_16V @ Jan 29 2007, 02:00 PM) *
Sorry for my lack of English unsure.gif but what does "ground" mean. Is it the same like grinding the bearing tare away? >> [if you need the crank to be ground ]

>>EDIT<<

After some Googleling I felt like doh.gif (stupid). Past and present time enz blablabla oops.gif



Yes ground is the past tense of the verb grind (the present tense), but you pretty much answered that yourself!

When I rebuilt the fiat 16vt engine the crank was measured and luckily it was not worn, so I used new bearings for the crank and for the rods, all standard size. For that engine you are able to do that, I do not understand why you can't on a boxer. Especially if you get a new/refurbished crank which has the correct diameter on the journals allowing you to use the correct thickness bearing.

Refurbished means it is a used part which has been taken apart or repaired back to original state.
Exchange means they would need your old part as well, very common here when buying alternators & starter motors.

Still €300 for a crank if it is in perfect condition is very cheap, especially with the bearings!


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Websites are like a**eholes, everyone has one, and im wary of any bloke trying to direct people into their's.

The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly colored and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: Is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, 'Hey - don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride...' And we ... kill those people.
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Mielle145_170...
post 31st January 2007 11:08
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I probably could use the old one, but if the crank is worn Evo thought >>If you can still get new crankshafts for the boxer then you might find just replacing it completely an easier and more cost effective option<< wink.gif


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Mielle145_170...
post 1st February 2007 06:53
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Check this out. Last night I have fabricated a engine stand from wood
Maybe I can use it for my TV when the rebuild is over?.....biggrin.gif .

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Mielle145_170...
post 2nd February 2007 13:16
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QUOTE(Mielle145_1700_16V @ Feb 1 2007, 07:53 AM) *
Check this out. Last night I have fabricated a engine stand from wood
Maybe I can use it for my TV when the rebuild is over?.....biggrin.gif .


Engine is placed on the stand and its holding the engine!! (without any cracking) thumbup.gif


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Mielle145_170...
post 2nd February 2007 21:27
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Well, Hi again to all by Alfa friends!

I just degreased my hands to hopefully get some help from you guys. worshippy.gif I have just pulled the engine apart to disassemble the crankshaft. I noticed that the engine already have got new bearing caps, gaskets an pistons. dry.gif I think the crank is also ok BUT,,,,,, I have found some “problem”? I can move the crankshaft sideways for about 0.30 MM…. Is this normal or are the crankshaft bearings worn??? Please Help because I have a appointment tomorrow for honing etc. and maybe take the crank out before then to get a second opinion.

The movement is towards the red arrow. The sideway movement from the green arrow is zero!

Thank !!
worshippy.gif worshippy.gif worshippy.gif worshippy.gif worshippy.gif worshippy.gif

Ohhh, I LOVE THE ENGINE STAND

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GialloEvo94
post 2nd February 2007 22:33
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QUOTE(Mielle145_1700_16V @ Feb 2 2007, 09:27 PM) *
I have just pulled the engine apart to disassemble the crankshaft. I noticed that the engine already have got new bearing caps, gaskets an pistons. dry.gif I think the crank is also ok BUT,,,,,, I have found some “problem”? I can move the crankshaft sideways for about 0.30 MM…. Is this normal or are the crankshaft bearings worn??? Please Help because I have a appointment tomorrow for honing etc. and maybe take the crank out before then to get a second opinion.

That movement is called "end-float" and the maximum movement should be between 0.06mm and 0.25mm on the Boxer engine. You really need to take a very acurate measurement with the block securely held down, then use a dial gauge to measure exactly how much movement there is. The movement is controlled by two half-thrust bearing rings which look like this...



In the Twin Spark engine they're inserted either side of one of the main bearings in the middle of the crankshaft...



However, in the Boxer engine they're inserted either side of the main bearing nearest the flywheel (sorry, I don't actually have a picture of them in a Boxer).

If there is too much end-float then you can just replace these two half-thrust bearing rings with new ones (they're only about 7.5 Euros each). You get them in standard size and also 0.127 oversize (in case you have excessive wear on the main bearing / crankshaft).

HTH smile.gif


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Mielle145_170...
post 2nd February 2007 23:43
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Thank you for your late night answer!

Well, I have just check the uuuh, "end-float" of the crankshaft and discovered that it is less then 0.20. I think around 0.15 MM. Yes, I don't have the fancy gadgets like you do but I have my old and trusty..... , how do you call this thing unsure.gif [SEE PICTURE]?
I don't know the exact end float but I know its within the limits.

By the way, the crank is not worn and the engine already has got new pistons and bearings. Could become a cheap rebuild. tongue.gif

Tomorrow I will clean the block entirely en start the paint job. I think I will put the “old” pistons and rings back into the block. This because the where just settled within the cylinder. I don’t want to go to all the trouble of honing, grinding etcetera. The bearing plates don't show any ware at all?? Kind of strange or not. How will rebuild his engine en directly bring it to the scrap yard??

A well, I hope this will be one of those project that goes smooth,Uhh.., I hope I'm not cursed now I sad that. doh.gif

worshippy.gif Thanks again for your quick answer, I appreciate that !!!! worshippy.gif

2e BTW
Why is this end float only mentioned in the manual for the 1400, 1600 and not for the 1700 16V? Should be the same I guess?
O, and don't even start about my very expansive high precision instrument. laughbounce2.gif

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GialloEvo94
post 2nd February 2007 23:55
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Sounds like a good plan thumbsup.gif You were lucky to find an secondhand engine in such good condition. If all internals are new then there is no point in replacing anything and if the engine has new pistons and rings then my guess is that the bores are either OK or they will have already been honed or rebored by whoever put the new pistons in it.

The tool in your picture is called a set of "Feeler Gauges" wink.gif

End-float tolerances for the 1.7 16v Boxer engine is on page 13 of this document smile.gif


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Mielle145_170...
post 3rd February 2007 00:07
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I’m a little confused, the 1700 engine overhaul says 0.35mm blink.gif . I hope it is the maximum end float.

I think it is enough for today, I’m out! sleep.gif

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GialloEvo94
post 3rd February 2007 00:20
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QUOTE(Mielle145_1700_16V @ Feb 3 2007, 12:07 AM) *
I’m a little confused, the 1700 engine overhaul says 0.35mm blink.gif . I hope it is the maximum end float.

hmmm...you're right unsure.gif Yes it is the maximum allowable end float (not minimum). But one document says max end float of 0.25mm and the other says 0.35mm huh.gif Well I guess it doesn't really matter as yours is less than 0.25mm so it's within the the maximum tolerance specified in either document smile.gif This means you don't need to replace the half-thrust bearings as the end-float you have is perfectly acceptable biggrin.gif


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Mielle145_170...
post 3rd February 2007 18:35
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Painted the engine today and got a complete set of new gaskets for around €400,- blink.gif . Check the photo’s coolio.gif

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Mielle145_170...
post 6th February 2007 07:02
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This weekend I disassembled the pistons / rods and weight them for optimal “smoothness” . Unfortunately I discovered some nasty scratches on two pistons on both sides. Earlier I found some rust in my cylinder….. sad.gif .

So, this morning I dropped my engine by the Alfa Dealer for :

- Bore and hone the cylinder
- Chemically clean the whole thing
- Get some new oversized pistons
- Get new bearings (crank and pushrod)
- Assemble the whole thing (crank and pistons)

I know, it’s a waste of money blush.gif , but I want to have the confidence that the engine is ok when I will putting down the paddle (when its finished unsure.gif ) .


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