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> Pinging/detonation at RPM over 4000
Dima
post 11th December 2015 12:48
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Hello everyone!

I have some mysterious pinging noises while pushing the car to high rpm range. I believe it is Detonations because it occurs only under certain load.
From what I know detonations occur if the ignition is too advanced (But ECU is managing the ignition timing), I am fulling my car with 95 petrol, Using NGK BP6EY spark plugs.
It drives and pulls very well.

The car is 146 Boxer 1.6, 240K on the odometer, using 20w40 Agip semi-synthetic oil.

Any ideas? What could it be?


Thanks,
DIma
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cesar86
post 12th December 2015 14:01
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Hello Dima!

When you hear those pinging noises, do you feel any difference in engine performance? I'm asking because if the problem really is detonation, the knock sensor picks it up and ECU almost immediately retards ignition timing to avoid further knocking, which results in performance degradation and is quite noticeable (car feels down on power while accelerating). And if knocking persists, ECU can also enrich mixture to try cooling down the combustion chamber, which would increase gas mileage.


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niaugi
post 14th December 2015 06:49
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Hi,

boxer engine has no spark retard logic, it has no knock sensor etc..

detonation occurs at partial load or at wide open throttle?

you should check Spark plugs for damage, you have something wrong in combustion chamber,
and
try higher octane petrol and see how it is.

i am now experimenting with Megasquirt in 1.6 boxer engine, i can give it a lot of advance when cold, but when hot, knocking starts to kick in and i have to reduce it (find boxer sweet spot).
so, you should check some overheating problems also, check your real engine temp.

also mixture maybe is too rich/lean, i would: make engine hot, disconnect the battery for a few minutes, connect and give it a good drive, make some fun using rpm range you had a detonation.
if you hear no detonation at first few minutes, i think it is related to lambda.

and are you sure, it is detonating? maybe it is missfiring? spark plugs/wires, hole in exhaust before lambda sensor, fuel pressure, etc...

good luck.

This post has been edited by niaugi: 14th December 2015 06:51
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Dima
post 14th December 2015 18:22
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Hi guys,

Thank you for the fast reply!:)) I appreciate it!

As niaugi sad that in the boxer engines there are no knocking sensor, it very simple ignition system with few sensors.
The detonation occurs at a partial load, half way down on the pedal, at over 4000 rpm.

The car pulls well, from the cabin i hear those pinging noses, I am pretty sure that this is detonation, but maybe I am mistaken.
The LAMBDA sensor was recently changed, I did it after the ignition light went up and the fuel consumption was a disaster. The spark plugs seems to be OK, planing on changing them too.
I'll try your method with unplugging the battery while hot, will see how it turns up.
Could it be ground on the engine or maybe fuel pressure regulator?

How do you suggest to check the real temp of the engine, using those IR thermometers, if so, where to aim:)?

Thanks:)
Dima
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niaugi
post 14th December 2015 21:21
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hi,

i think we become too serious about IR things here biggrin.gif just check with your hands if engine is not overheating and not red glowing biggrin.gif
if lambda is new, no so much things to look here.. reset the battery would be a good move to try.

also try to disconnect air temp sensor and make some tests. mixture should be richer, so if you have lean combustion this should show some results maybe.
but i am not sure about this (i used resistor to simulate temperatures, if fully disconnected maybe ecu is not richening like i think it should, but you can try).

minimal/partial load is the biggest advance
if you step fully advance decreases a bit and detonation dissapears.

this partial load reminds me squadra chip i have in 1.7 16v boxer. it detonates like mad in the middle rpms with 95 petrol in hot summer day. if 98 is used, detonation is only when i repeatedly make full throttle bursts (extreme heat in combustion chamber).
do not know why it is so sensitive, maybe bcoz compression is a bit rised and might be sharp edge somewhere, or too lean combustion, will try to solve with MS in the future.

ooorrr.. maybe you have some oil leakage to combustion chamber (valve seals), lots of black residues and have some hot red glowing spots.. give it some heavy acceleration in the highway, you need to clean that beauty wink.gif

and now i do not think it is fuel pressure - you have detonation at partial load in mid rpm (~70-80% fuel flow from the max).

or the simpliest thing: low quality fuel you got at gas station, so try to refuel! wink.gif
uh.. a lot of guessing here smile.gif
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Dima
post 15th December 2015 08:53
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Thanks niaugi for the great tips,

I'll try to experiment with my Alfa:)))
Today arrived to work and disconnected the battery for a minute. I'll see how she drives back home:)
Maybe it is also a good idea to run some fuel additive to clean the injectors and maybe the valves a bit. Actually I am skeptical about all those cleaners:).

I'll report later on how it turned out.

Good luck with your Megasquirt project!!!
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niaugi
post 15th December 2015 12:37
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QUOTE(Dima @ 15th December 2015 10:53) *
Thanks niaugi for the great tips,

I'll try to experiment with my Alfa:)))
Today arrived to work and disconnected the battery for a minute. I'll see how she drives back home:)
Maybe it is also a good idea to run some fuel additive to clean the injectors and maybe the valves a bit. Actually I am skeptical about all those cleaners:).

I'll report later on how it turned out.

Good luck with your Megasquirt project!!!


hm.. interesting case smile.gif answer a few questions please.

does it detonates when:
1. cold
2. warm
3. hot (working temp)
4. idling (standing still) and suddenly pressing accelerator
5. pushing wide open throttle whole rpm range
?
did you make any air intake modifications? cone air filter?
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Dima
post 18th December 2015 10:02
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From: Israel



Hi niaugi,

Answers to your questions:
I haven't noticed detonations while engine was cold, but I didn't tried to accelerate due to traffic in the city, once I'm on the freeway it is already at working temp. Usually it detonate at 3rd gear over 4000 rpm while pedal pressed about half way.
While standing still and suddenly pressing accelerator it doesn't detonate.
I have disconnected the battery and connected it back while engine was hot as you suggested, I think it affected positively and reduced the detonations, however it still detonates at some load conditions. Maybe something to do with the engine temp sender?
The car is stock. No modifications.

Thanks,

Dima S.
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niaugi
post 28th February 2016 10:07
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so.. did you resolve detonation issue?
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nahar
post 26th June 2016 05:03
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QUOTE(niaugi @ 14th December 2015 14:49) *
Hi,


i am now experimenting with Megasquirt in 1.6 boxer engine, i can give it a lot of advance when cold, but when hot, knocking starts to kick in and i have to reduce it (find boxer sweet spot).
so, you should check some overheating problems also, check your real engine temp.



good luck.



Hi Niaugi

I am intending to go Megasquirt... i seek your help in pointing out the right direction and guide on getting megasquirt such as what megasquirt module to buy and getting the mapping. btw my car is 146 1.6 8v with GM ecu.

tq

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niaugi
post 18th July 2016 06:29
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Hi,

nice to know someone is interested in MS too smile.gif
i have MS 2.0 3v do it yourself. i soldered everything, it works, but sometimes i loose rpm signal, do not know if i made some mistakes in soldering or smth.. if i could to turn back the time, i would buy MS 2.0 v3 complete unit. (it is more expensive, but if you are not superb eletric man, maybe worth the money..)

here is an example (i bought everything from here: DIY ECU, Simulator, wiring):
http://www.protoparts.fi/catalog/index.php?cPath=13_18

MS 2.0 3v is more than enough. you really do not need MS 3.0. also MS1 or MS2 v2.2 are not good choices also i think..

i adapted to 146 1.6 8v boxer. it is perfect for education purposes, but not worth the money and time if it is your goal to make this slow car faster. it won't. maybe just a little bit, but... take off the back seats and it will be much faster wink.gif

if you need any initial Tunerstudio/MS settings for boxer let me know, i experimented a lot, made the best maps i could, bought Tunerstudio with ability to autotune fuel map.
my next step is to adapt MS into 1.7 16v.

also i bought wideband lambda, i think it is a must thing to have for tuning:



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nahar
post 21st July 2016 17:16
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Can't make a donkey turn to a horse with MS for sure! Hahaha

My intentions is to move away from GM Rochester! Tired of the unavailability of software to diagnose unless I have to travel 400km away just tone know why the ecu is flashing injector light indicator.

With MS will open up further upgrade to 1.7 litre block and utilising 8v head... i still love the bassy 8v sound... and also option for other ignition unit.
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niaugi
post 22nd July 2016 05:49
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Hi, there is not so much fault reasons in 8v boxer, i never had to search for diagnostic. if you know how to use multimeter, just check how lambda reacts to throttle, check if coolant and air temp resistance is within the normal range, there is nothing much to look for. MS is over the top i think. but it is fun. smile.gif


QUOTE(nahar @ 21st July 2016 18:16) *
Can't make a donkey turn to a horse with MS for sure! Hahaha

My intentions is to move away from GM Rochester! Tired of the unavailability of software to diagnose unless I have to travel 400km away just tone know why the ecu is flashing injector light indicator.

With MS will open up further upgrade to 1.7 litre block and utilising 8v head... i still love the bassy 8v sound... and also option for other ignition unit.

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bobkelso
post 22nd July 2016 17:12
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Hi, very very interesting discussion about Megasquirt on alfa boxer.

Ps.: I'm not an expert of the 1.6 8v boxer, but NGK BP6EY spark plugs
is a bit hot plug, usually for a bit quieter engine,
have you tryed if detonation disappears using NGK grade 7?

On alfa 33 usually it is used NGK grade 7 or sometime 8,
and grade 6 is apcetable (but still dangerous for detonation)
only if the car is used with very quiet drive.

This post has been edited by bobkelso: 22nd July 2016 17:13
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