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> 1.7 16v Engine Repair
niaugi
post 16th December 2013 06:35
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1.4 16v
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so, lets talk a bit about performance..

feelings:

until now, it was pulling at ~2200 nice torque, then at about ~4500 started a new power band.

compression test:

right head
cyl 1: 170 psi
cyl 3: 175 psi
left head
cyl 2: 150 psi (wet test shows ~165 psi)
cyl 4: 165 psi

both heads were rebuilded
new piston rings and cylinders are honed..
one thing.. piston rings are from different makers, but the same specs and only for 1.7 16v. two packs goetze, one SM and one NE (npreurope). can not say now which ones are in cyl2.

my compression tester is not the best in the world, till now i think it is because i did not seal it good as access is very bad to cyl2, but.. maybe i am too optimistic, and cyl2 is a bit leaking..

from rebuild it went ~600 km. changed oil at 150 km, and will change to full synth at about 1000 km.

sparks and air flow:

so changed spark plugs from Denso Q22P-U (nikel) to Denso IK22 (Iridium).
and noticed, i lost some torque at 2200 and 4500.. all the power band become without emotions. maybe i touched something else, was retorquing heads, changed thermostat, soldered lamda wires.
but diagnostic Multi ECUScan program shows no errors..
changed my old bosch maf to alternative maf from china. acceleration is almost the same, some pulses of weak power at wide open throttle (cheap product..), so put back my bosch..

and i am thinking.. what a f.. lets change back spark plugs i used before (Denso Q22P-U)..
can not say all the power is back, i am not dyno, but in my opinion it pulls better again..

Denso catalog recommends PK20PR-P8 (platinum) and VK20Y (iridium). IK22 i found to be same size and specs.. so i bought them as a good choice. anyone else used IK22 plugs from denso?

all plugs when removed are white nice, only nikel ones from 2&4 cylinders were a bit darker.

and MAF.. how can i say if it is a source of lacking power?
overall car accelerates the same with bosch and china. diagnostic program shows a big increase of air flow at WOT. have no numbers now, maybe will try to record later.
if MAF is disconnected, power is weaker and idle is bad.

temp sensor:

i found air temp sensor always shows ~15 celcius more than is in real. bought a new one, it shows the same! i have 0C ambient temp, but diag shows i have +15. and it is not connection problem i think, when i measure resistance, it shows ~5 kOhm, so by manual it equals to 15celcius, but there is 0celcius in real smile.gif so, both sensors are bad? can not believe this no3.gif but overall temp sensor can not be such inpact of power lack.. but maybe temporary will try to connect ~10kOhm rezistor imitating 0 celcius.

lambda readings:

lamda is new from Denso. Self-adaptive FRA and TRA parameters noticed always gets into negative zone (-4 or similar).
so it means too rich exhaust and lamda commands to make it leaner? or vice versa?

so.. smile.gif

do not know what to do now biggrin.gif what parameters to watch in diagnostic program?
try other spark plugs, or try another MAF? but Bosch is so expensive, it will cost a lot.. and maybe problem is no way about MAF..
has anyone tried a cheaper Bosch analog?

can not say it is very slow, but i was expecting more from a fresh engine. my 1.6 boxer seems more responsive until 4000 rpm, feels even faster. 1.7 starts to beat at high rpm.
or just wait until engine will bed in finally, but i thought 600 km is a number, you can say almost everything is at ~90% power..

will try to test 1.7 on dyno later, but first i want to make everything perfect.

This post has been edited by niaugi: 16th December 2013 07:18
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NaanBread
post 16th December 2013 18:48
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1.8 16v
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Temperature sensor can cause the engine to run rich as the ECU will be in choke mode. I would find the fault with that sensor and get it fixed. It may be the cause of all running issues.

But to be honest I really dont know alot about the old boxers.


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'You know you're a true petrol head when you've had to buy parts for your Alfa'
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niaugi
post 16th December 2013 19:35
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1.4 16v
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QUOTE(NaanBread @ 16th December 2013 20:48) *
Temperature sensor can cause the engine to run rich as the ECU will be in choke mode. I would find the fault with that sensor and get it fixed. It may be the cause of all running issues.

But to be honest I really dont know alot about the old boxers.


your words exactly! put 10 kOhm resistor, so it simulates -11 celcius. outside is +3 and..
engine breathes better smile.gif this is how it must be i think..
of course a bit too rich now i think, a bit smell of fuel while was diagnosing..

sometimes very strong pull at 2200rpm and <4000, sometimes seems a bit lazy engine, so there is something to improve in injection or air system.. or it is just my faulty feelings.. smile.gif
few screenshots of diagnostic, a bit acceleration and idle.. maybe something strange you will see smile.gif
(i noticed, idle is a bit too low, before temp modification i can remember it was a bit more..)





This post has been edited by niaugi: 16th December 2013 20:28
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niaugi
post 16th December 2013 20:49
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1.4 16v
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also removed old catalytic converter today, just before temp mod.
can not feel any big difference or faster acceleration, in fact was not hoping to feel something big, just wanted to be sure, exhaust is free of likely parasitic catalytic resistance.
now have resonator tube, exhaust sound is the same as it was before smile.gif
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niaugi
post 17th December 2013 19:24
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1.4 16v
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ok, i think i found why Denso IK22 performs worse than nikel standart..
examined IK22 and used old NGK PFR6B platinum (standart for 1.7 boxer), and found that NGK is a bit more projected into cylinder. i mean threads are the same, but nose is longer by ~1 mm. seems this small difference is worse for Denso IK22.

but to make some drive tests i did:
put IK22
exchanged correct working air temperature sensor from 1.6 boxer (had to solder connections, because switches are different)
placed more free flow air filter (in standart filter place)
and..

pleasure to drive smile.gif engine fires up instantaneously.
iridium is perfect for fast start, even nose is not correctly projected.
softer reaction to gas pedal, gradual nice acceleration. nice pull at 3rd gear ~3000 rpm..
acceleration will be better i think when i buy correct platinum/iridium spark plugs. meanwhile will use IK22.

one thing left is shaky idle. made a lot of synchronizing (transparent tube with a small amount of water connects two throttle air holes and i watch if water is in center, if one of throttles sucks water in one side, i am opening a bit air screw to compensate), water centers, but it did not help a lot, engine is a bit shaky..
maybe i have to buy some professional stuff, or what to do, if anyone knows correct easy way, please tell me wink.gif

thats all for today smile.gif



This post has been edited by niaugi: 17th December 2013 19:41
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niaugi
post 27th December 2013 21:44
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1.4 16v
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did some experimental test on the highway, pressing full throttle.. seems MAF works, but no 5V like should be on full WOT vacuum..
so ordered new original Bosch from Germany.. will get it after new year one week later smile.gif

(if i disconnect MAF, car pulls the same in middle range unsure.gif . low torque stays better with my old maf.
Lamda self-adaptive FRA parameter: 88 unsure.gif ECU is making huge corrections! i think system is going verrrry lean.. ) (no vacuum leaks!)
overall no good acceleration.. in fact makes me very nervous about engine rebuild success.. 1.6 8v is making acceleration better..

tested with the OLD one, until ~6000 rpm.
so will wait for new MAF and show the differences.. it seems it is a BIG preformance player.
meanwhile i drive sometimes with MAF disconnected, especially on the highway.
thinking about MAP and aftermarket programmable ecu..



This post has been edited by niaugi: 28th December 2013 08:02
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niaugi
post 4th July 2014 04:44
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1.4 16v
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so, just to finallize this topic - boxer runs fine. i would say - runs like it should.
all the "problem" was: just needed to wait for final bed in. now, after ~5000 km after second rebuild, boxer runs fine, fuel trims +-4, rings sealed, compression is good (all 13-14 bar), oil 5w50, spark plugs are NGK PFR7B - perfect.
few things for future investigation - rough idle (throttles 100% balanced, think it is something internal), low vacuum at idle (~0,2 bar).
now waiting for dyno time, will be interesting smile.gif
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alfisti
post 22nd June 2016 08:35
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1.3 8v
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Hey niagui. I'm a 145 1.7 16v owner too. I can connect to ecu (fiatecuscan software)via vag com kkl cable and 3 pin converter. I can detect and clear error codes with it also i can check injection test, ico test etc...

I've just can't see the sensor parameters. When I choose any of the parameters in parameters section, software just shuts down. I've tried all versions too and same thing happen every time.

I see that you use multiecuscan software. Which one I should choose? Which version is more stable?
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Crank
post 8th July 2016 16:29
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1.4 16v
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Hi old man.

Know it is not the right topic, but just a quistion: How is it going niagui.

Crank.
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ugura09
post 17th July 2016 19:14
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niaugi
post 18th July 2016 08:41
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1.4 16v
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hi boxer guys!

via vag com kkl cable
i have old Multiecuscan 1.2R1 version - try different settings of latency.

or you need a better cable (chip), the good one is with FTDI chip, but i have CH341SER china chip/driver, it works but sometimes shuts down connection and i have to reconnect.
please read this topic:
http://forum.alfa145.com/index.php?showtopic=23940


1.7 16v engine

about a year ago i decided to stop rebuilding my old engine (it ran like a pig), and made some fun:

ordered 88mm pistons
picked another 1.7 16v block, bored to 88mm size
another crankshaft
camshafts from 33 1.7 16v with a little bit longer duration

boxer runs a little bit better than original. or i could say it runs much more better, but did not remember how it was really biggrin.gif
idle is much much more smoother, parts are more balanced, i often run >6000 rpm with a smile biggrin.gif
and no more oil consumption! i was loosing about 1 liter every 1000-3000 km with an old engine, but this gem is no more oil hungry at all. or maybe a combination of Rapsol 5w50 carrera synthetic + Liqui Moly MoS2 addon has something with it.

before i went into Megasquirt field i bought a squadra chip for 1.7 16v.. i can say it was THE BIGGEST MONEY WASTE in my life. maybe it would help for standard motor, but modified 88mm bore sized engine started to detonate like mad (compression is a bit higher but not much), i had to send back chip to seller, he modified it a bit (reduced or made spark advance at defaults), then with 98 petrol if not very hot i can run mostly without detonation with ~ +1NM torque addition biggrin.gif so..

of course there are some nice chip futures:
idle is a bit advanced (~9 degrees, standard is dead 0) - a bit smoother idle, higher vacuum
redline is ~7200 rpm, steam starts to run out at ~>6500, but sometimes it helps at the track or somewhere else for longer acceleration without gear change.

my future plans are:
Megasquirt and standard intake elimination (use trumpets).

88mm bore gave me these specs:
144 bhp at 6500 rpm (std 127 bhp at 6500 rpm) change +17 bhp
160 Nm at 6100 rpm (std 149 Nm at 4300 rpm) change + 11 Nm

looking at the Dyno pic below i see i got a much better 2000-3000 rpm range than original (black line at the right Squadra info pic)
Made dyno runs with and withot squadra chip, both runs were alomost identical.
it means..? i need a custom map (will try Megasquirt).

my wish is to reach 150 bhp. Trumpets + Megasquirt.. maybe is possible.. smile.gif

and as always some media:

Dyno time and Squadra default ant chip promises:



Megasquirting





new 88mm pistons:





Renault piston rings smile.gif



new block:



shiny heads:



having fun:



Gerbox stiffness! smile.gif



Ride the lightning!



This post has been edited by niaugi: 18th July 2016 13:59
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bobkelso
post 22nd July 2016 17:20
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Hi, lot of interesting work you are sharing here.

Ps.: curious about:
-what manufacturer are from 88 pistons?
- you know what teorical CR they shold give?
- Renault ring set are from what model car
(I searched the code but was not able to find)?

Bob

This post has been edited by bobkelso: 22nd July 2016 17:29
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