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> Heel Toe, Do you know how?
Do you know how to Heel Toe?
Do you know how to Heel Toe?
Yes - Fluidly and Practice [ 10 ] ** [21.74%]
Yes - Fluidly dont Practice [ 3 ] ** [6.52%]
Yes - Tried [ 8 ] ** [17.39%]
Yes - Tried but not very good [ 15 ] ** [32.61%]
No - Never tried [ 6 ] ** [13.04%]
No - Dont know what your on about! [ 4 ] ** [8.70%]
Total Votes: 46
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Rixio
post 16th November 2005 19:33
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Where do you fall??


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jamesgrrr
post 16th November 2005 19:37
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Heel toe?

Is that similar to trying to bite your own ears at the same time as touching your elbows with your hands? (left hand left elbow right hand right elbow, no cheating!)


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Loafer
post 16th November 2005 19:38
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I don't know what liftoff oversteer is, either.


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Daaaveee
post 16th November 2005 19:43
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know how to? yes

can i? not very well! my legs are long and go all over the shop laugh.gif

Dave


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F355
post 16th November 2005 19:47
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I know what it is but I have never actually done it. Its not something I would practice on the road.
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jamesgrrr
post 16th November 2005 19:57
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is there any chance of being enlightened?


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jay_uk
post 16th November 2005 20:07
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when braking into a corner, as you shift down you roll your foot between the brake and throttle to match the transmition speed to the engine speed so you dont unbalance the car.

just try driving along at say 3/4000 rpm, then change down a gear. you'll feel the car learch as the engine revs suddenly rise on the down shift. now do it again, but as you depress the clutch blip the throttle to somewhere close to where you think the revs will be once in the next gear. if done right you should have alot smoother down change. reccomend practicing the amount of throttle to use without braking, and playing with the posistion of your foot to get the right balance between the two pedals (its not really ur heel and toe, more like ur foot is angled \\ )

bit of a dodge description, sure some one with abit more tech brains can describe better.


jay.
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sweens308
post 16th November 2005 20:32
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The one thing with this is that, as jay uk rightly points out, it's not normally the 'heel' that's used.....more the right hand side of theball of the foot.

I've tried it, mostly as I feel I'm missing out on something and wasn't that successful, but I think it needs a lot of practice and not really the sort of thing to do on the way to work!!

Racing drivers use it, to get a smoother downchange, but to be honest, it's rarely the sort of thing that most of us are gonna get the benefit from!!!

I've found some more detail, via google....

Begin braking for the corner with your right foot. The location of the pedals and the size of your foot will dictate where you position your foot on the pedal, but most likely it should be canted a little to the right, closer to the throttle pedal.


Push in the clutch with your left foot.


This is the hard part. With your right foot still applying pressure to the brakes, roll the outside edge of your foot outward and downward to touch the throttle pedal. The pedal design on some cars makes this easier to do than on others. Use the outside of your right foot to blip the throttle. Blipping the throttle means temporarily raising the engine rpms to match the wheel speed. The exact amount of revs needed is dependent on a variety of factors, but it is usually between 1,000 rpm to 2,000 rpm more than the current engine rpm for a one-gear downshift.


Move the shifter to third gear.


Release the clutch with your left foot.
As you can see, "heel-and-toe" is a misnomer. It actually involves the ball of your foot and the side of your foot. We'll be the first to tell you that heel-and-toe downshifts aren't easy. We've found that a good way to practice is to just sit in your car in your garage and pretend you are doing a heel-and-toe downshift with the engine off. Keep repeating the steps until you are familiar with the process. Once you are ready, try it out for real. Most likely, your early attempts will be botched. Keep trying, though. Practice each step slowly and then work your way to making them all one, fluid motion. Skilled drivers can execute a heel-and-toe downshift in less than one second.

The trickiest part is getting the correct amount of rpms to match the new gear. If you blip the throttle too much, the engine has too much speed compared to the wheels and is forced to drop down to the wheel speed when you let out the clutch. If you don't blip the throttle enough, the engine rpms are forced to rise up. Either way, you know you didn't do it right as the car will jerk a little.

You'll also know it when you did it right. A proper heel-and-toe downshift is so smooth and so satisfying that, once done correctly, you'll find yourself using the technique all the time. The great thing is that you don't have to be a racecar driver or be on a racetrack to use it. Additionally, using the heel-and-toe downshift technique on the street can improve safety. In certain emergency situations, you might be required to brake heavily and then accelerate quickly. By heel-and-toe downshifting, your car will be in the best gear to achieve maximum acceleration.

So, let's recap. It's fun to do. It improves driving safety. It reduces the amount of powertrain wear on your car. Other than the amount of time it takes to learn, there is no downside. What more could you want?


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jay_uk
post 16th November 2005 20:38
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knew it could be written more straight forward. if your nipping down the shops its not the sort of thing your going to need to know, but if you are giving it some stick this technique will keep your car more balanced braking into corners and as it says puts alittle less stress on your car. which is never a bad thing.

jay.
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sweens308
post 16th November 2005 20:45
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I've got a vid clip of some Japanese racing driver doing a sub-8 minute lap of the Nurburgring in a Honda NSX.

........there is a small second camera focused on the pedals and he does heel n toe on every braking/downshift manoevre. It's pretty impressive to watch, sure and he clearly does it as a matter of course.......impressive stuff.


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jamesgrrr
post 16th November 2005 21:05
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aha, all is clear now.... i think i've unconsciously tried this method, except break first then change down a gear and match the revs... so i would break seperately then do the gear down/rev matching afterwards. i have noticed this is the smoothest way of changing down a gear but was never sure whether it was better or worse for the engine than just letting the clutch out slowly.. i'll have to try this method too (sounds pretty hard to master!)


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AJ
post 16th November 2005 21:58
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I do it loads - I used to find it quite easy in the 145, but now I've changed the seat and the brakes it's not so easy - the brake pedal does not move enough in relation to the accelerator pedal.

In the 147, dead easy - it's got nice alu pedals that are quite wide - you don't have to heel & toe, more like a rocking your right foot from side to side to apply pressure on the brake/throttle as needed. It's great when changing down what would be aggressively for hard braking into corners.

Also good when the synchro's have gone and you need to change down!


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paulcanning69
post 16th November 2005 22:03
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s**t i thought you were on about the scottish dancing heel toe heal toe 1.2.3 turn. sorry
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Rixio
post 16th November 2005 22:20
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QUOTE(AJ @ Nov 16 2005, 09:58 PM)
I do it loads - I used to find it quite easy in the 145, but now I've changed the seat and the brakes it's not so easy - the brake pedal does not move enough in relation to the accelerator pedal.

In the 147, dead easy - it's got nice alu pedals that are quite wide - you don't have to heel & toe, more like a rocking your right foot from side to side to apply pressure on the brake/throttle as needed. It's great when changing down what would be aggressively for hard braking into corners.

Also good when the synchro's have gone and you need to change down!
*



I found it exactly the same. The steering wheel position thread got me thinking about it as i do it regulary. When i first started in the QV i thought the driving position is too high. But i found with the seat position just under half way and with the wheel covering 80mph mark it was perfect and a very easy car to implement heel toe technique. (for my height of 5,11")

If your interested in it then i suggest not to try this, but try double clutching first, if you can get that right then you know what revs to use for heel toe. Much easier way to learn IMHO. wink.gif

TBH not many track regulars seem to use it either, personally i dont understand why?! say it burns out the clutch!! apparently laugh.gif N00BZ laugh.gif

Good luck with it boyoz & report back


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Rich T
post 16th November 2005 23:11
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Course I can: if you had learned to drive in 33s with no syncro you would too!

And if you know how to, it'd be silly not to use it sometimes in case you forget how to do it!

I do find in the 145 it can be hard to keep your foot hard enough on the brake while blipping the throttle sometimes tho!

Interesting note: in the owner's manual for the Renault 19 it said that there was no advantage to doing it.

And my grandad leanred to drive on army trucks with no syncro, so had to do it gleam.gif


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pimp
post 17th November 2005 12:10
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You can;t realy do it on my JTD, as soon as you aply the brake the engine power die's.


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Rixio
post 17th November 2005 12:20
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QUOTE(Rich T @ Nov 16 2005, 11:11 PM)
Course I can: if you had learned to drive in 33s with no syncro you would too!

And if you know how to, it'd be silly not to use it sometimes in case you forget how to do it!

I do find in the 145 it can be hard to keep your foot hard enough on the brake while blipping the throttle sometimes tho!

Interesting note: in the owner's manual for the Renault 19 it said that there was no advantage to doing it.

And my grandad leanred to drive on army trucks with no syncro, so had to do it  gleam.gif
*


WOW it actually mentions it in owners manual?!!! laugh.gif


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zilspeed
post 17th November 2005 13:02
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There isn't an option that says - "I just do it" :-)

I've had lots of crappy cars over the years which needed you to drive around no synchro . engines dying if you didn't keep them alight / failed clutches etc. And I've been driving quite some time now as well (old git-ish). So, heeling and toeing and clutchless gearchanging are easy. Having said that, Heel and toeing is pretty pointless unless you're giving it the full beans and matching revs under heavy braking is essential.
I also do 'a bit' of sprinting and 'a little' hillclimbing now as well, so it's genuinely correct to do it there.


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zilspeed
post 17th November 2005 13:05
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QUOTE(pimp @ Nov 17 2005, 01:10 PM)
You can;t realy do it on my JTD, as soon as you aply the brake the engine power die's.
*


Even with the clutch in ? You're looking for a bit of revs as the clutch is disengaged whilst changing gear. I would agree that left foot braking wouldn't be possible with this sort of management. Certainly, VW / Seat / Mercedes all do this now.


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Mozza
post 17th November 2005 13:55
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Understeer and Oversteer – Identification and Solution

Often you will hear racing drivers talking about oversteer and understeer, but what exactly are they talking about? Does it commonly occur, or is it just limited to motorsports and young lads showing off? Here is a rough explanation of what each term means.

Understeer

Imagine you're driving a car, and turn the car into a bend. However, the vehicle doesn't respond and keeps going straight, or it turns in but not as much as you would like.

This is understeer. Basically, the front wheels slip on the road surface, allowing the car's momentum to push it straight on. When understeer occurs, the steering will feel lighter and somehow not connected to the front wheels. Most modern cars are set up to understeer before anything more serious will happen.

There are two ways of dealing with this.

*

The first is to keep the throttle steady and wind more steering lock on. This has the advantage of keeping the car stable in attitude throughout.
*

The second, much harder option, is to ease off the throttle and keep the steering lock where it is. On front wheel drive cars, this allows the wheels time to grip the road and turn, although a gentle easing off is required to keep the car stable (see 'lift-off oversteer' below).

Oversteer

Imagine you're driving a car and turning into a bend. However, you only put in a small steering input and the car turns in much more sharply than you anticipated.

This is oversteer. The rear wheels are going faster than the fronts, pushing the vehicle around. Sometimes the rear wheels will slip more than the front when cornering on slippery roads, leading to the same effect as vehicle momentum and weight distribution can push the rear of the car around.

The best way to counter this is with an armful of opposite lock while keeping the throttle steady; ie, turn the steering wheel in the opposite direction. This should counteract the oversteering effect, although it takes skill to tell how much opposite lock is needed.

This is also tutored by driving schools as turning into the skid: in other words, if the rear of the car is coming round to your right when going around a left hand bend, turn the steering wheel to the right.

If you have a choice, never, ever, sharply lift off the throttle when oversteer occurs. This will seriously upset the balance of the car and may make the situation worse.

A Subset - Lift-Off Oversteer

Sudden changes in throttle mid-bend, on any type of vehicle, are usually the best way to see how fast you can embed yourself into a hedge. This phenomenon is called 'lift-off oversteer'.

At the point of throttle lift-off, there is usually a larger amount of steering lock than strictly necessary applied at this point. When the throttle is released, the car suddenly follows it and the sharp change in throttle settings upsets the vehicle. This causes the vehicle to corner more sharply than intended or, in extreme cases, causes it to lose grip completely1.

A Slightly Different Case - The Four-wheel Drift

This happens when all four wheels have very little grip on the road, and the vehicle slides in whichever direction it wants to. It is often manifested as an extreme case of understeer, where the whole vehicle is slipping, not just the front wheels.

The generally recommended course of action is to turn gently into the direction of the skid, so that the vehicle has a chance of steering itself out of it.

Alternatively, if you have a clear road, are confident of yours and the car's abilities, and are having fun, it is possible to hold the slide by careful balance of the throttle and steering. Powerful rear and four-wheel-drive cars can be provoked into power slides, which is effectively a steering and throttle controlled four-wheel drift; see any Jeremy Clarkson or rallying video for evidence. However, it must be stressed that this isn't a tactic to be used as a matter of course on public roads!

As before, avoid stepping on the brakes or lifting off the throttle, as this will only make the skid worse.

A good pictorial explanation of oversteer and understeer from a Formula One driver's perspective can be found at The Car Behaviour Guide.

How to Avoid Over- and Understeer

All advice can be summarised as follows:

*

Tyres - Make sure all your tyres have good tread and are at the correct pressures. Also, be wary if intending to drive hard on so-called 'fuel saver' tyres. These are often low friction to help fuel economy, and this means less grip is available.
*

Roads - Be aware of camber changes and uneven road surfaces as these can all upset your vehicle. Some types of surface offer different grip levels, so be aware of that.
*

Weather - Wet or damp weather is tricky, as it will often make roads extremely slippery. If the road surface looks very shiny, it's very waterlogged, so drive with caution.
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Speed - Above all, drive at appropriate speeds and leave sensible distances between yourself and other vehicles. That way, if trouble does happen, you have time to react and room to get out of it. Don't assume that because you can't see something, it isn't going to happen.
*

Stability - Keep the vehicle as stable as possible. Avoid sudden, sharp changes to the throttle, brakes or steering, as this will unsettle the car. The most stable vehicle is one under gentle acceleration. If at all possible, aim to get all your gear changing and braking done before you enter the bend, so you can accelerate out.

Never assume that because a road was fine yesterday and the day before, it'll be fine today 2.

For more advanced driving techniques, there are some good ones in the h2g2 entry surprisingly entitled Advanced Driving Techniques. There is also quite a bit of useful information on driving in general at BBC Motoring.

That said, good judgement comes with experience - and a lot of that comes from bad judgement!

1 Porsche 911s have been known to swap ends when this has happened; a known problem with rear-engined, rear wheel drive cars (weight distribution is a large factor in this case).
2 As said in Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels, 'assumption is the mother of all f***-ups'. Not profound, but certainly true.

Ripper,

Mozza

This post has been edited by Mozza: 17th November 2005 13:55


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