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> What is the right engine temperature for an AR 145/146?, Does nominal engine temperature varies by model version?
Jacob
post 21st April 2018 00:16
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Hi,

I am an owner since 1999 of an Alfa Romeo 145 Junior edition 16V 1.4 T.S (AR 33503) model year 1998 Gama version (930).

All this years engine temperature despite driving and weather conditions was always just a click below 90C, right in the middle of the temperature instrument.
Unfortunately in 2016 and without any previous visible signs, engine got overheated. Most probably because of poor engine gasket seal maintenance (it should have been replaced in the long term routine maintenance).
Engine repair cost required was higher then replacing it with a used one. And so it happened. Engine changed with used same type which was in pretty good condition. All other motor peripherals were maintained from the first one except few that had to be replaced with new ones. Some with original parts and others with after market parts (such as sparks, thermostat, water pump, temperature sender, MAF, Cam belt, etc...). Only the radiator was substituted with a used one, original part number, thoroughly cleaned and maintained.

However, from the first few rides it was obvious that unfortunately the car did not resemble to its previous condition. Poor performance, many technical issues and of course, temperature issues arise.

The mechanic responsible for the refit, on the one hand, claimed that most likely the engine was an earlier version than the original thus working on slightly higher temperature levels, and on the other, that the oil that passed through in the water system during the overheating, was preventing the coolant system to operate optimally and that after some time the system would clean it self gradually returning to its standards. Back then it sounded somehow a logical explanation and just rested upon it... big mistake. Just 10 moths later this engine got also overheated with out even a warning light blink!

This time went of course to a different mechanic, just to someone, not a fancy specialized guy but an "old guard" brought up from the good old days. Thankfully the engine this time didn't suffer from serious irreversible damage so it went for a repair. Most of the motor peripherals were also replaced for the second time. During the repairs, it came out that we also had to replace the intake manifold which we did. So, and having in mind to improve somehow performance, without any fitting problems, installed a manifold from a 2.0 liter AR 156 TS!

This time finally, the result of the repairs and the refit was on its whole ...magnificent! The 19 year old car reminded its brand new days, not to mention that in some aspects it even performed better!

But one thing persisted. Temperature issue was once again present! Just that this time it seems to be somehow better regulated. It fluctuates around 90C reaching up to 100-110C in traffic and goes as low as 80C in open highways. All cooling system parts checked thoroughly twice this time and most of them replaced with new ones. But problem still persisted.

Just a few days ago the temperature metering instrument malfunctioned. So i got another one. A used one, as new ones are not anymore available. Installed it and was terrified to see that the temperature problem was even worse than i thought. What was going on? ... i knew that the new instrument i got was from an AR 146 TS 2000 model, the MY version. Just to notice that the two reading instruments looked in first sight the same but actually weren't. The original had 90C in the middle between 50C lower and 130 higher, while the other had 80C in the middle between 40C in the low end and 120C in the top end!
However readings corresponded actually to the same values in both instruments. It's just what looked like nominal in the original one around 90C, in the other looked as if it was way above the middle nominal temperature area. When temperature rise up to 100C in the first one, in the other seemed to be very high, almost overheated! ...puzzling blink.gif !

So does that mean that different engines from different production years, models and versions have different spectrum of working temperatures? And beyond that, is matching the right parts to the actual corresponding version a bit more complex than it seems? For example i have noticed that there are two diversions of thermostats. Some of theme start to circulate when reaching 88C while others do that quite lower in 82C! Both diversions, even after checking parts with VIN number, are supported for all TS engines! And that is even more puzzling...

So now what, anybody any ideas? Thanx!

This post has been edited by Jacob: 21st April 2018 00:30
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alfizta
post 22nd April 2018 13:46
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old versions of TS engines (metal top) work at around 80 șC, while newer versions (plastic top) my 98(not sure) and after work at about 90 șC.
there are two versions of temp gauge dashboards, earlier with an 80 at the middle and newer with the a 90 at the middle. it happens that in the earlier dashes looks like the 80 (and 40 and 120) were misprinted and actually indicate 90 șC (50șC and 130șC). so, if in an older version gauge points to «80 șC» it means that really the engine is at 90 șC. so, in a metal top engine normal temperature would be pointing at somewhat between the «80 șC» and «60 șC» dashes pointing to about «70 șC», when it really is at 80 șC. you can confirm this by plugging in diagnostic software like multi ecu scan. anyone correct me if I am wrong, please.
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Jacob
post 23rd April 2018 15:09
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QUOTE(alfizta @ 22nd April 2018 16:46) *
old versions of TS engines (metal top) work at around 80 șC, while newer versions (plastic top) my 98(not sure) and after work at about 90 șC.
there are two versions of temp gauge dashboards, earlier with an 80 at the middle and newer with the a 90 at the middle. it happens that in the earlier dashes looks like the 80 (and 40 and 120) were misprinted and actually indicate 90 șC (50șC and 130șC). so, if in an older version gauge points to «80 șC» it means that really the engine is at 90 șC. so, in a metal top engine normal temperature would be pointing at somewhat between the «80 șC» and «60 șC» dashes pointing to about «70 șC», when it really is at 80 șC. you can confirm this by plugging in diagnostic software like multi ecu scan. anyone correct me if I am wrong, please.


Thank you "alfizta"! I do find your explanation very specialized, many respects worshippy.gif

...so would you consider that a plastic top or a metal top can have an impact in the health/temperature of the engine? I am saying that because in my case i am afraid that the first mechanic that did the refit with the used engine, installed an older one (than the car's original) which goes normally with a metal top but used the plastic top of the initial motor.

And according to your saying, when my reading instrument shows around 90 °C (above middle 80 °C) is actually 100 °C or above ? eek.gif
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dante giacosa
post 24th April 2018 06:51
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iF that is the case, Jacob;

That you now have a metal-top engine (CF1) with a plastic top /head? (CF2) fitted,

Then you will indeed have different engine management.

On the CF1 engines- there are two temperature senders next to the thermostat. One sends to the ECU and one to the dashboard instruments.
On the CF2 engines, there is one sender, and the dash instrument reading (coolant temperature) is derived from the ECU itself.


Jacob- it really sounds like a bad thermostat. But i'm a bit confused about your engine variant- can you post a picture of your thermostat, on the visible side of the engine, and that will answer a lot of questions... (Can you work out how to post a picture..?)

This post has been edited by dante giacosa: 24th April 2018 08:09
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omar
post 24th April 2018 14:29
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Hello, how are you? I am from Argentina. I have a problem. When the engine reaches 90 °, I accelerate alone. I have a 145 2.0 alumnium top engine
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Jacob
post 24th April 2018 16:14
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QUOTE(dante giacosa @ 24th April 2018 09:51) *
iF that is the case, Jacob;

That you now have a metal-top engine (CF1) with a plastic top /head? (CF2) fitted,

Then you will indeed have different engine management.

On the CF1 engines- there are two temperature senders next to the thermostat. One sends to the ECU and one to the dashboard instruments.
On the CF2 engines, there is one sender, and the dash instrument reading (coolant temperature) is derived from the ECU itself.
Jacob- it really sounds like a bad thermostat. But i'm a bit confused about your engine variant- can you post a picture of your thermostat, on the visible side of the engine, and that will answer a lot of questions... (Can you work out how to post a picture..?)


Hi dante giacosa, i appreciate your comment.
This is the second thermostat and sender unit i have changed in 15 months. The first ones right after the engine refit were EPS. After the second repair i installed a Facet thermostat and a KW sender/temperature unit. So i guess this may not be the issue. There are two things i will try shortly. One is to replace the sender unit with a FIAT original part number corresponding to my VIN number and the second to install a new aftermarket radiator (probably NRF or any other suggestion would be welcomed).

However my concern is that generally my engine seems to be messed up. CF1 motor with CF2 parts and ECU unit...

Here are the photos, hope will throw some light...

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This post has been edited by Jacob: 24th April 2018 19:04
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alfizta
post 25th April 2018 10:16
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well, this is somewhat embarrassing, as service manuals as contradictory, misleading and incorrect.
there are 2 different thermostats available for TS engines.

V1, only for CF1 engines (metal top), part no. 60614140, specs says it opens at 83 șC
V2, for CF2 engines (plastic top), part no. 60653946, specs says it opens at 88 șC
this information confirms what I wrote here.

I own a CF1 146 1.6 TS and temp sits at between the «80șC» and «60șC» marks (misprinted dashboard) meaning that is really about 80 șC.
I aslo own a CF2 156 1.8 TS and temp sits at almost «90 șC» meaning that is really at about 90 șC.
both thermostats in good working order already replaced at least once.

what is confusing is that 146 service manual does not mention this specs differences between CF1 and CF2 engines. only refers to thermostat opening at 83 șC.
elearn for 156 either, and only mention opening at 83 șC
gtv service manual, the same.
only found 88 șC opening temp in elearn for the 147.
what is more confusing is that, according to eper parts list, there are versions of CF1 TS engines using the V2 thermostat and therefore working at 88 șC.
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dante giacosa
post 25th April 2018 10:21
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my CF2 1.8 TS runs at an indicated "90" dead.

no movement, once up to temperature at all.

(thanks, I suspect to the efforts of former owner; Jeremy G!)


Jacob- from what I can see in those images, you have a CF2 motor, thermostat and coolant return pipe. It all looks pretty standard and up to date.

Having said that, and with deference to Alfizta; I cannot tell which thermostat that is; although it appears identical to mine, and still has the factory clips on the return line; suggesting originality.

This post has been edited by dante giacosa: 25th April 2018 10:30
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alfizta
post 25th April 2018 11:43
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well, hope this helps
V1, part no. 60614140, only for CF1 engines
Attached Image


and
V2, part no. 60653946
Attached Image


check hose connections

This post has been edited by alfizta: 25th April 2018 11:45
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dante giacosa
post 25th April 2018 12:00
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Well done, Alfizta!
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alfizta
post 25th April 2018 12:12
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but I have a remark/correction to make to myself. been digging on eper and V1 of thermostat has been used for CF2 1.4 TS (but not 1.6 and above) engines as well. your car has version 1 of the thermostat in CF2 1.4ts, so all looks OK.

This post has been edited by alfizta: 25th April 2018 12:13
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alfizta
post 25th April 2018 12:20
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about your question about the engine being «cooked» from overheating with a wrong thermostat, it seams unlikely, as v2 (hotter version) wouldn't fit the hose setup. anyway, cooling fan would avoid such incident, I think, if somehow v2 thermostat was fitted. anyway, eventually, could lead to a premature head gasket failure...
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dante giacosa
post 25th April 2018 12:37
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the engine in those pictures looks PRETTY clean

I doubt the head gasket has ever been replaced on Jacob's car (as it stands)
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alfizta
post 25th April 2018 13:05
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about temp readings on your new dashboard, 1.4 and 2.0 ts dashboards have different part numbers, so might be incompatible. that way, can't help you with that. better to fit diagnostic software to know to what real temp the display corresponds to.
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Jacob
post 25th April 2018 19:40
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dante giacosa and alfizta, wow... thank you for your responds worshippy.gif . That's a lot to process!

When alfizta mentioned earlier about the CF1 and CF2 engine issue with the metal and plastic top, quote
"old versions of TS engines (metal top) work at around 80 șC, while newer versions (plastic top) my 98(not sure) and after work at about 90 șC.
there are two versions of temp gauge dashboards, earlier with an 80 at the middle and newer with the a 90 at the middle. it happens that in the earlier dashes looks like the 80 (and 40 and 120) were misprinted and actually indicate 90 șC (50șC and 130șC). so, if in an older version gauge points to «80 șC» it means that really the engine is at 90 șC. so, in a metal top engine normal temperature would be pointing at somewhat between the «80 șC» and «60 șC» dashes pointing to about «70 șC», when it really is at 80 șC"

...it struck me and made cense because i remembered a conversation i had with the mechanic that fixed the engine replacing the seal gasket (and etc...). Please note that he is a general mechanic, very good in his job, but not a specialist alfisti. So he said that the gasket he initially got based on my chassis/Vin number didn't fit properly (!!!). He then checked with his supplier to find out that an older gasket version fitted, saying that it was for a metal top engine (SF1), thus older then my original (Feb/1999).
At that time i didn't have the right input to process this situation so i rested upon his specialty as he suggested that i wouldn't face any problems while the engine seemed to work fine with all the peripherals and especially with the ECU unit (which was the original of my car - CF2).

So it ended, unfortunately, with having a CF1 motor on a CF2 environment covered with my original first plastic cover wacko.gif ...what a mess!!!

I have hooked up twice the ECU to a diagnostic system and it shows intense fluctuations of the temperature. The second level of the fan starts quite frequently and it seems that it does the job but generally the temperature is overall quite high and falls on normal levels only on open roads. So i am concerned as alfizta mentioned quote "...if somehow v2 thermostat was fitted. anyway, eventually, could lead to a premature head gasket failure..."

...thank you both for all that info. It's mostly appreciated and is very helpful. I think that i must have an extended conversation with my mechanic. Guess that i must somehow try to see how a V1 thermostat may work (correct me if my thought is wrong)...

EDIT ...oh now i get it! Sorry i got it wrong. I have i V1 thermostat that's for sure (thought had a V2 from the descriptions, stupid me...) The engine, according to the incident with my mechanic about the gasket, is probably CF1. But even if it was CF2, it would work because it is a 1.4 TS where V1 thermostats are also legit. So either way as far as the thermostat is concerned things seem to be Ok. Right? unsure.gif

But what about the ECU? What if is a ECU From a CF2 managing a CF1 engine. Would that matter?

Attached Image


Thanx again and keep in touch. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Jacob: 25th April 2018 21:01
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dante giacosa
post 25th April 2018 21:24
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this is a fascinating problem

I'm not sure CF2 engine management would run CF1 mechanicals

as an isolated observation, I think the coolant sensor has a different number of wires per version;

correct me if I'm wrong someone..?


Interesting bit of black tape round that loom...


Hey Jacob- can you post pictures of your coolant expansion-tank and the relays under the cover in front of the battery..?

This post has been edited by dante giacosa: 25th April 2018 21:25
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Jacob
post 25th April 2018 21:41
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QUOTE(dante giacosa @ 26th April 2018 00:24) *
this is a fascinating problem

I'm not sure CF2 engine management would run CF1 mechanicals

as an isolated observation, I think the coolant sensor has a different number of wires per version;

correct me if I'm wrong someone..?
Interesting bit of black tape round that loom...
Hey Jacob- can you post pictures of your coolant expansion-tank and the relays under the cover in front of the battery..?


According to the first mechanic that did the major engine substitution with the (problematic as it turns out) used one, he only installed the engine block with it's head. All other elements, peripherals and parts (core, basic and secondary) were kept as they were from the original motor. So it seems that the cabling and rooting somehow works. Or it semi-works...

That black tape was used as the intake loom (correct?) to the throttle body was somehow damaged. The tape is an emergency-kind of solution to seal the slit.

I will definitely take the photos tomorrow.

Thanx!

P.S Does this look Ok?
Attached Image


This post has been edited by Jacob: 25th April 2018 21:55
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Antonio
post 25th April 2018 22:07
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Hmm...I think the problem is simpler than how you see it.

CF1 and CF2 can be retrofitted without major problems, so I don't think this is the reason of the issues you face, only the head gasket varies in thickness(My99 has more CR)

Me think that you instrument cluster doesn't match with the temp sensor fitted to the engine, has your's the chrome rings around the gauges?

Your thermostat should open at 83șC (both versions works at 83șC) and looks like you have the correct temp sensor by looking at the pics you provided, so all this is okay.

Then, if all above is correct, then you can start looking into cooling issues. Best is to get a diagnostic tool to compare temp readings ECU vs Instrument cluster, check 1st and 2nd speeds of radiator fan and so on..on open roads, engine temp should be near the opening temp of the thermostat, even if you trash it, if it goes up when asking for power, you radiator is internally clogged (usual). The thing is that you say you have most problems on slow, city driving..what's the ambient temp out there?


QUOTE(alfizta @ 25th April 2018 13:16) *
I own a CF1 146 1.6 TS and temp sits at between the «80șC» and «60șC» marks (misprinted dashboard) meaning that is really about 80 șC.
I aslo own a CF2 156 1.8 TS and temp sits at almost «90 șC» meaning that is really at about 90 șC.
both thermostats in good working order already replaced at least once.

what is confusing is that 146 service manual does not mention this specs differences between CF1 and CF2 engines. only refers to thermostat opening at 83 șC.
elearn for 156 either, and only mention opening at 83 șC
gtv service manual, the same.
only found 88 șC opening temp in elearn for the 147.
what is more confusing is that, according to eper parts list, there are versions of CF1 TS engines using the V2 thermostat and therefore working at 88 șC.

156 has the software of the temp gauge made the way that when coolant temp reaches 70șC, it points at 90șC an never moves only if you go below 70șC or +110șC so they can't be trusted (I think 145/6 MY99 works like this, but I can't confirm as I don't have the engine fitted to my 146 Ti CF2)

147 2.0 TS has CF3 management wich is way different than the older ones, so nothing to help from here

This post has been edited by Antonio: 25th April 2018 22:24
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Jacob
post 25th April 2018 23:05
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QUOTE(Antonio @ 26th April 2018 01:07) *
Hmm...I think the problem is simpler than how you see it.

CF1 and CF2 can be retrofitted without major problems, so I don't think this is the reason of the issues you face, only the head gasket varies in thickness(My99 has more CR)

Me think that you instrument cluster doesn't match with the temp sensor fitted to the engine, has your's the chrome rings around the gauges?

Your thermostat should open at 83șC (both versions works at 83șC) and looks like you have the correct temp sensor by looking at the pics you provided, so all this is okay.

Then, if all above is correct, then you can start looking into cooling issues. Best is to get a diagnostic tool to compare temp readings ECU vs Instrument cluster, check 1st and 2nd speeds of radiator fan and so on..on open roads, engine temp should be near the opening temp of the thermostat, even if you trash it, if it goes up when asking for power, you radiator is internally clogged (usual). The thing is that you say you have most problems on slow, city driving..what's the ambient temp out there?
156 has the software of the temp gauge made the way that when coolant temp reaches 70șC, it points at 90șC an never moves only if you go below 70șC or +110șC so they can't be trusted (I think 145/6 MY99 works like this, but I can't confirm as I don't have the engine fitted to my 146 Ti CF2)

147 2.0 TS has CF3 management wich is way different than the older ones, so nothing to help from here


Hi Antonio!

My car is model, or at least, what remains, the chassis, February 1999. Just the last version before MY, without ABS and no chrome rings around the gauges. Ambient temperature this days is around 28șC , but the problem was evident even in days of winter time with temperatures close to 5șC.

I am not a mechanic, not even an amateur hobbyist with engines (perhaps i am becoming one, hahaha), i could definitely disassemble and reassemble a computer in less then 10 minutes, but the further i have gone with a car is to replace (the other day) the reading board on my own (actually even merged the gauges from different boards, just a thought that my temperature instrument may have been the problem). But my hunch tels me (kabooom, yeah) that the engine has some cabling, rather rooting issues and that the core of the problem is ECU management. CF1 engine perhaps with newer ECU generation. But that is more of a computer-ish thinking i guess... never the less, i am moving as a first desperate step towards replacing the sender unit (temperature censor) with an original FIAT part corresponding to my chassis/VIN/ECU numbers and a brand new good quality radiator (thinking of NRF brand, part number 58995).

Thanks for the input! Surely any further ideas and thoughts would be mostly appreciated.

Cheers smile.gif

This post has been edited by Jacob: 25th April 2018 23:15
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Jacob
post 27th April 2018 12:12
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QUOTE(dante giacosa @ 26th April 2018 00:24) *
this is a fascinating problem

I'm not sure CF2 engine management would run CF1 mechanicals

as an isolated observation, I think the coolant sensor has a different number of wires per version;

correct me if I'm wrong someone..?
Interesting bit of black tape round that loom...
Hey Jacob- can you post pictures of your coolant expansion-tank and the relays under the cover in front of the battery..?


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