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TwinSparker
post 25th March 2019 13:10
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Hello guys!

I'm a proud new owner of an AR 145 1,6 TS 2000
wub.gif .

When cold engine is started ( at least 3-4h in between ignitions) it starts, revs a bit and dies.
This only happens on the 1st time. On 2nd try it starts normally.

I browsed a few threads and I did the following:
+ Rewired the BBoB (it was very corroded/oksidised)
+ Checked the fuel cutt off switch and it doesn't click.

And the problem still it persists.

Now I'm moving on the CRANK and MAF sensors.

am I moving in a right direction or can you give me some advice?

Much appreciated!
Greetings from Slovenia!

This post has been edited by TwinSparker: 25th March 2019 13:57
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TwinSparker
post 25th March 2019 16:23
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I unplugged MAF and the problem still persists.

Could a dirty throttle body also be the cause?
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dante giacosa
post 26th March 2019 08:29
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Hi Twinsparker-

greetings from Scotland!

There are really only two things that will prevent these engines from running, and will cause them to stall.

The crank sensor- which usually only becomes an issue when the car is warm, and the fuel pump..
I would suggest the fuel pump is your next area of investigation. Accessible through a hatch in the floor at the rear of the car (I'm sorry I don't have a 145 myself, so can't tell you if it will be under the rear seats or under the boot carpet)

But it will be on your passenger side at the rear
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Ganz
post 28th March 2019 01:54
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As Dante says it won't be your crank sensor as that needs a hot engine. Have a look at your inlet and throttle body. Sounds like fuel problem. Might be worth checking the fuel relay of the BBoB.


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JeremyG
post 30th March 2019 08:51
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As per Dante and Ganz the fuel system is worth investigating (the fuel pump is accessible under a cover beneath your boot carpet)

A couple more questions:

- Once the engine fires and runs (the second time you try) does it run normally? In particular, does it idle correctly?

- Your post mentions a 2000 car so I'm assuming that has the plastic engine cover, correct?

This post has been edited by JeremyG: 30th March 2019 08:52
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TwinSparker
post 3rd April 2019 18:05
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QUOTE(JeremyG @ 30th March 2019 08:51) *
As per Dante and Ganz the fuel system is worth investigating (the fuel pump is accessible under a cover beneath your boot carpet)

A couple more questions:

- Once the engine fires and runs (the second time you try) does it run normally? In particular, does it idle correctly?

- Your post mentions a 2000 car so I'm assuming that has the plastic engine cover, correct?


Thank you all for your inputs. Been working long shifts, so I'm a bit late with replies!

- yes it runs normally. For the first minute or two the RPM are about 1050, after that stricly at 950.

- also yes, it has a plastic cover.

Also when the RPM start to fall at first cold engine ignition, if I hold down the gas padle nothing happens, but If I "pump" it (repetedly press it), it doesn't die.
But then when I drive off at first it doesn't register the gas pedal at all and after a second or two I get a huge acceleration and my car holds the speed of 20km\h in third gear on it's own, without me even pressing the gas pedal! blink.gif
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dante giacosa
post 3rd April 2019 21:47
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Hey Twinsparker,

I think I speak for the community when I say; 'w'hoa!'.

Major issues- on the throttle side of things.

For a kick-off I would have someone pump the gas pedal with the car OFF, and see if it's possible to see the action of the throttle under the bonnet; it might be worth removing the MAF (unit with 4-pole plug-in, inbetween the air-filter & throttle body) and seeing if you can see the butterfly moving within the throttle body, consistently.

It sounds like the throttle position sensor (part of the throttle body) is defective and also the idle control valve may also need some attention. (In the 1st instance)

I shall just wait for my esteemed colleagues to confirm or deny my initial observations...
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JeremyG
post 4th April 2019 07:17
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On my engine (which is the earlier alloy-top engine, which has a different idle control system), the cold start behaviour is:

- start the engine. It will idle at around 1500rpm
- after about a minute, the idle speed will start to reduce
- within a few minutes it has settled to 900rpm

If your engine cuts out only when cold then the idle control system could be at fault. To add to Dante’s advice, have you also tried cleaning the throttle body to ensure the throttle butterfly valve can move freely? Carburettor cleaner spray will help here.

While you are doing this, also check the condition of the inlet hose - splits or cracks that allow air in between the MAF and the throttle body can cause incorrect fuelling.

This post has been edited by JeremyG: 4th April 2019 07:21
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TwinSparker
post 4th April 2019 11:25
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Than you both for such fast replies!

During the last weekend I took off the air inlet and the butterfly was very dirty. I cleaned it, but the throttle body is moist from the inside and lower outside(oil?)
Should I just replace the whole throttle body or just clean it?
I checked for holes and cracks and none appear.
I also changed the air filter.


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dante giacosa
post 4th April 2019 20:37
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A residual 'mist' of oil on the butterfly isn't a disaster; particularly if the throttle body has never been examined.

It is undoubtedly worth cleaning, and check to see if it has a clean action when the throttle pedal is depressed with the engine off. You may be able to actuate it from the engine bay as well by pulling the cable.

The problem is more likely associated with the throttle-position sensor, which is 'less' readily serviceable, but not impossible. Caution should be had when examining this as if you disconnect it from the throttle body itself, the ECU will need recalibration for throttle position-lineup upon reconnection (I think).

It is also worth trying to see how clean the idle control valve is- this is mounted 'behind & under' the throttle body, on the main inlet hose, also.
It may in the first instance be worth trying to start the car, with the idle control valve disconnected and see if it makes any difference. If it is worse; then it is having some effect. If it is the 'same', then it would suggest the idle control valve is at fault.

This post has been edited by dante giacosa: 8th April 2019 10:02
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TwinSparker
post 6th April 2019 10:03
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QUOTE(dante giacosa @ 4th April 2019 20:37) *
A residual 'mist' of oil on the butterfly isn't a disaster; particularly if the throttle body has never been examined.

It is undoubtedly worth cleaning, and check to see if it has a clean action when the throttle pedal is depressed with the engine off. You may be able to actuate it from the engine bay as well by plulling the cable.

The problem is more likely associated with the throttle-position sensor, which is 'less' readily serviceable, but not impossible. Caution should be had when examining this as if you disconnect it from the throttle body itself, the ECU will need recalibration for throttle position-lineup upon reconnection (I think).

It is also worth trying to see how clean the idle control valve is- this is mounted 'behind & under' the throttle body, on the main inlet hose, also.
It may in the first instance be worth trying to start the car, with the idle control valve disconnected and see if it makes any difference. If it is worse; then it is having some effect. If it is the 'same', then it would suggest the idle control valve is at fault.


Thank you for such an in depth help!
Today after lunch I will start to work on my honey!

There also a major water leak on the right side door. I suspect the membrane behind the doorcard in leaking.

And one more thing if I may. What kind of air/polen cabin filter do I have to buy?
There are no codes on mine and I can't find anything substantial on the internet.
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dante giacosa
post 8th April 2019 10:19
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' a major water leak behind the door'?

You would do well to get a car-cover for your car, Twinsparker.

These vehicles are getting on a bit now, and have no business sitting in the rain. That is not to be seen as a solution for your door leak problem, but it solves 9 out of 10 water ingress issues, and is of massive benefit to the longevity of the vehicle.

However- you'd have to go into more detail on how the leak manifests itself?

On the pollen-filter front: there are two sides to this.
I have READ that UK cars (where this forum is based, and where I type from now) did not incorporate pollen-filters, I have also been TOLD by specialist garages that they have seen cars both with & without the filter.
I can tell you that my car does not have one, and I am unaware of a UK car which does.

In that respect, Shpuncik (on this forum) in Lithuania might be uniquely placed to help you on this.

However- I am very familiar with the hardware involved in the cabin intake system, and also own a FIAT Coupé, which is an identical system.
On UK 145s & '6s: the cabin intake (under the scuttle panel on the LHS) sits under a plastic cover and ducts air DIRECTLY to the ventilation plant fan.
On the FIAT Coupé, the same fan and duct are topped with a plastic frame with elastic cords, which hold a filter over the intake.
The frame is held in position by a couple of threaded studs which are present on the metal above the duct.

I'm always just about to do my own UK-spec cabin filter, as I have spare filter-hardware from a Coupe. I'll see if I can retrieve some pictures to illustrate this.

To answer your question however- you should maybe try for the cabin filter from a FIAT Coupé / Tipo / 155 / Dedra.


Attached is what we have in the UK (red car) and what the equivalent FIAT arrangement is (green car)





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TwinSparker
post 13th April 2019 16:25
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From: Slovenia



QUOTE(dante giacosa @ 8th April 2019 10:19) *
' a major water leak behind the door'?

You would do well to get a car-cover for your car, Twinsparker.

These vehicles are getting on a bit now, and have no business sitting in the rain. That is not to be seen as a solution for your door leak problem, but it solves 9 out of 10 water ingress issues, and is of massive benefit to the longevity of the vehicle.

However- you'd have to go into more detail on how the leak manifests itself?

On the pollen-filter front: there are two sides to this.
I have READ that UK cars (where this forum is based, and where I type from now) did not incorporate pollen-filters, I have also been TOLD by specialist garages that they have seen cars both with & without the filter.
I can tell you that my car does not have one, and I am unaware of a UK car which does.

In that respect, Shpuncik (on this forum) in Lithuania might be uniquely placed to help you on this.

However- I am very familiar with the hardware involved in the cabin intake system, and also own a FIAT Coupé, which is an identical system.
On UK 145s & '6s: the cabin intake (under the scuttle panel on the LHS) sits under a plastic cover and ducts air DIRECTLY to the ventilation plant fan.
On the FIAT Coupé, the same fan and duct are topped with a plastic frame with elastic cords, which hold a filter over the intake.
The frame is held in position by a couple of threaded studs which are present on the metal above the duct.

I'm always just about to do my own UK-spec cabin filter, as I have spare filter-hardware from a Coupe. I'll see if I can retrieve some pictures to illustrate this.

To answer your question however- you should maybe try for the cabin filter from a FIAT Coupé / Tipo / 155 / Dedra.
Attached is what we have in the UK (red car) and what the equivalent FIAT arrangement is (green car)


Dante, thank you!

The leakage was because the lower part of my front windscreen came off! After investigating the whole previous weekend I found that water comes in from the lower edge of the windscreen, gathers behind the dashboard, and after reaching a certain level it pours down the side of the glove compartment.
I'm getting it fixed this week!
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dante giacosa
post 14th April 2019 13:29
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i don't know what to say about that!

I'm glad you are able to get it fixed...
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